Scottish Aviation design projects ...

[TsrJoe]

Scottish Aviation SAL.50 Concord, registered G-AGTK, 1944/45 (utilising Consolidated B.24 Liberator wings and tail)
ref. Lion Rampant & Winged, Alan Robertson, (self published via McCorquodale Ltd.) 1986, Aeroplane, December 2020, & SAL. archive

 

[Schneiderman]

Couldn't you at least acknowledge the source? Especially as the magazine is still on sale. Aeroplane, Dec 2020

 

[TsrJoe]

Scottish Aviation Bulldog 440, tandem seat light strike trainer, via SAL. archive

 

[TsrJoe]

My apologies, il add your Aeroplane reference to the posting. I have been collating material, drawings etc on SAL. for a number of years and managed to obtain quite a number of large ga. drawings of various projects from Prestwick via their archives prior to its closure, iv no idea what happened to the remainder of the material tho, brochures, etc. ? (i recall noting a brochure for the SAL. Concord for sale on ebay a while back)





















































































































































































































































































































































































































Couldn't you at least acknowledge the source? Especially as theine is still on sale. AeDec 2020















































































Heres another source for SAL. project images (SCRAN. database)

 

[Schneiderman]

Indeed it was, and I bought it The 3-view you posted is my rearranged version of the SAL original for the article

 

[Schneiderman]

Here is the interior in sleeper configuration

 

[TsrJoe]

SAL. Pioneer developments ...

 

[TsrJoe]

SAL. Twin Pioneer developments ...

 

[TsrJoe]

SAL. Turbo Pioneer ...

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Are there any details about the project available?

 

[Petrus]

Here you've got data on some Scottish Aviation projects along drawings.
Piotr

 

[hesham]

From, Stuck on The Drawinbg Board,

the 3 Tonner.

 

[Viggen_37]

Scottish Aviation Bulldog 440, tandem seat light strike trainer, via SAL. archive

The design 440 was offered to the HAF (Hellenic Air Force) in the 1980s, with production under license from HAI (Hellenic Aerospace Industry).

 

[Hood]

Scottish Aviation Bulldog 440, tandem seat light strike trainer, via SAL. archive

The design 440 was offered to the HAF (Hellenic Air Force) in the 1980s, with production under license from HAI (Hellenic Aerospace Industry).

This is very interesting as I have seen a marketing painting of the 440 in Hellenic AF colours (plus the standard Bulldog too). So this fits. Do you have any more information or a source regarding the licence offer?

 

[Flying Sorcerer]

Scottish Aviation SAL.50 Concord, registered G-AGTK, 1944/45 (utilising Consolidated B.24 Liberator wings and tail)
ref. Lion Rampant & Winged, Alan Robertson, (self published via McCorquodale Ltd.) 1986 & SAL. archive

What were the engines?

 

[Schneiderman]

Scottish Aviation SAL.50 Concord, registered G-AGTK, 1944/45 (utilising Consolidated B.24 Liberator wings and tail)
ref. Lion Rampant & Winged, Alan Robertson, (self published via McCorquodale Ltd.) 1986 & SAL. archive

What were the engines?

Whatever engines were installed on the donor Liberator wings (see Aeroplane Dec 2020)

 

[Viggen_37]

Scottish Aviation Bulldog 440, tandem seat light strike trainer, via SAL. archive

The design 440 was offered to the HAF (Hellenic Air Force) in the 1980s, with production under license from HAI (Hellenic Aerospace Industry).

This is very interesting as I have seen a marketing painting of the 440 in Hellenic AF colours (plus the standard Bulldog too). So this fits. Do you have any more information or a source regarding the licence offer?

No, unfortunately not.
I read it some years ago in a old greek aviation forum, that doesn't exist anymore ...

 

[PMN1]

Why Liberator wings and where would they actually be made?

 

[EwenS]

Why Liberator wings and where would they actually be made?

The British Ministry of Aircraft Production appointed British aircraft companies as “Sister Companies” to look after US aircraft types in British service. This could extend to modifications for British use, maintenance, repair schemes, production of spares and reassembly of aircraft delivered by sea.

Initially Handley Page were to be responsible for the Liberator but this was very quickly transferred to Scottish Aviation in 1941, probably because HP were so heavily involved getting the Halifax into service.

Virtually all Liberators delivered for the RAF service in Britain passed through the SAL plant at Prestwick on arrival for the latest modifications. GR Liberators would often be recycled through that plant for the latest radar and weapon fits. For example they carried out fitment of, and later removal, of fuselage and bomb bay rocket rails and also BP tail turrets.

So this SAL proposal dated to 1944/45 makes sense in terms their 3+ years of experience with the aircraft. I doubt that new wings would have been envisaged. Possibly more likely a means of recycling Liberators that otherwise would have been scrapped post war. If new wings were required the facilities were available at Prestwick to manufacture them. The SAL Pioneer, built at Prestwick, flew in 1947 for example. They continued building complete aircraft through to the mid 1990s as part of BAe. The factory space is now owned by Spirit AeroSpace.

 

[alertken]

Exactly, Ewen. The job of UK Sister Firms was to hold sufficient of the Design Record to be able to cut holes and meddle with load paths, as MAP Local Modification Committee might wish, to do UK-peculiar things, and (legitimately) to copy parts $-sparse. Few held Approvals extending to grafting alien wings onto Limey fuselages - ?only Marshalls, who held/hold the highest Design Approval, and UK Designers like Saro, Sister on US boats.

The A to the Q "where would the wings come from" is...ah, well, that depends. US Law covering Lend/Lease was that this was for the Defense of US. If...
this SAL project received an RAF Spec and MAP procurement contract, then SAL could access US material in OLLA/FEA Prestwick Store to build them, or Br.Air Commission in US could requisition wings from Consolidated or Ford and send them over on ships. And if not, not. I like Ewen's thought of cobbling from weary, battered heaps.

Civil Certification would not be possible without licence from/Royalty payments to Consolidated, because that would not be for the Defense of US.

 

[EwenS]

When the war ended not all the Liberators delivered from the squadrons to the MUs were “war weary”. New aircraft from US Modification Centres continued to arrive at SAL Prestwick until 20 Aug 1945. From there it was to MU storage before eventual scrapping.

It seems to me that there is an opportunity for SAL to buy them instead of the scrapman. Only issue is were these transactions in £ or $? Maybe less of a problem if the aircraft are intended for export rather than British airlines.

 

[Schneiderman]

Why Liberator wings and where would they actually be made?

. I doubt that new wings would have been envisaged. Possibly more likely a means of recycling Liberators that otherwise would have been scrapped post war.

Correct, the specification document reads ...
The design, embodies the main wing and other structures of Liberator Aircraft which become surplus as and when the fuselages are damaged beyond repair, or the Liberator becomes redundant as an operational type.

 

[ACResearcher]

What were the dimensions of the SAL.50??

 

[Schneiderman]

What were the dimensions of the SAL.50??

Span 120ft
Length 81ft
Fuselage diameter 10ft 2in

 

[alertken]

When L/L was terminated 8/45 Lord Keynes, economist grise, was given the job of negotiating what Lend or Lease meant - who pays what, to whom? Airlines were being set up in hope of business and could bid for $ for L/L a/c. Keynes was authorised to buy very many Dakotas and some transport Liberators. Scottish A/L operated 5 of BOAC's and 4 of their own, UK 1940 cash purchases, but were able to add 1 (G-AHDY) ex-L/L, for $. L/L settlement was within a Loan, effective 7/46, which was tapped by BOAC for L-049s. By then BOAC had been designated as monopoly, so no market for feeble SAL Connie copies.

 

[PMN1]

This design looks better that what Avro came up with with the Tudor after having to cobble together a design from existing parts.

 

[PMN1]

Why Liberator wings and where would they actually be made?

. I doubt that new wings would have been envisaged. Possibly more likely a means of recycling Liberators that otherwise would have been scrapped post war.

Correct, the specification document reads ...
The design, embodies the main wing and other structures of Liberator Aircraft which become surplus as and when the fuselages are damaged beyond repair, or the Liberator becomes redundant as an operational type.

Are there records on how many wings, from any aircraft, were reused when the fuselage was damaged beyond repair...wartime, I can see the urgency but peacetime???

 

[Schneiderman]

Are there records on how many wings, from any aircraft, were reused when the fuselage was damaged beyond repair...wartime, I can see the urgency but peacetime???

McIntyre, MD of SAL, was pursuing the same simple goal as Brabazon; to have viable civil transport aircraft available immediately the war ended by using what was readily available or by minimal conversion of existing airframes, so the Concord would only have been produced for a brief period before better equipment became available. However MAP did not move at the pace this required so neither Tudor nor Hermes were anywhere close to being ready to go and SAL were ignored. Of course McIntyre was also pushing hard to have Prestwick designated as a major hub for airlines so having a working airline of his own on day one helped his cause.

 

[Schneiderman]

This design looks better that what Avro came up with with the Tudor after having to cobble together a design from existing parts.

The government enquiry into the Tudor saga highlights, amongst many issues, all the aerodynamic woes with the aircraft, commencing...."The story of the aerodynamic defects and their solution is a long and complex one involving action by the constructors, the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Establishment at Boscombe Down and the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough over a period of about two years." Nobody comes out well from the enquiry, Avro, BOAC and the Ministry all sharing responsibility for the sorry tale.

 

[PMN1]

This design looks better that what Avro came up with with the Tudor after having to cobble together a design from existing parts.

The government enquiry into the Tudor saga highlights, amongst many issues, all the aerodynamic woes with the aircraft, commencing...."The story of the aerodynamic defects and their solution is a long and complex one involving action by the constructors, the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Establishment at Boscombe Down and the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough over a period of about two years." Nobody comes out well from the enquiry, Avro, BOAC and the Ministry all sharing responsibility for the sorry tale.

Is the report digitised anywhere?

 

[Schneiderman]

Yes, part is included with the Cabinet Office minutes for 11th December 1947 along with all the political/commercial/technical arguments. All Cabinet Office minutes can be downloaded for free from the National Archives. The full report RAE report was published as R&M 2789 which is available for download here

https://reports.aerade.cranfield.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1826.2/3340/arc-rm-2789.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

[ACResearcher]

Schneiderman,

Thanks very much for the dimensions on the SAL.50.

AlanG

 

[Hood]

I have come across some interesting information, from Air-Britain's Archive magazine, from 1983 by Tom MacFadyen, and a follow-up in a 1986 issue.

MacFadyen states that at the time of the Concord's cancellation in mid-1945 that SAL were working on some other projects:

The Installation and testing of Bristol engines in a Transatlantic Liberator. Presumably this was in connection with the Concord project, the engines were deemed unsuitable by May 1945. Presumably these were either Hercules or Centaurus?

Secret negotiations with Rolls-Royce to obtain jet engines for a Transatlantic Liberator. Apparently SAL had originally wanted to put jets on the Lancaster replacing the Merlin nacelles and providing a performance of 440mph at 40,000ft, but they couldn't get a workable inner nacelle design due to the undercarriage. Presumably them they switched their attention to the Liberator. MAP vetoed any supply of jets in late 1945. Again, the type not mentioned but presumably Derwents?

A licence-built US design capable of seating 360-passengers and powered by British gas turbines. SAL's MD, Group Captain D.F MacIntyre on 19 January 1946 claimed the US airliner was in the last stage of test flights and he described it as a 360-seater capable of a cruising speed of 340mph. The editor of Archive supposed MacIntyre was referring to the Convair XC-99. But the prototype didn't fly until 24 November 1947 and the civilian version for PanAm was only planned for 204 passengers. The design shown is the middle drawing from an April 1944 paper for SAL's proposed expansion of Prestwick. Chief Designer Robert MacIntyre confirmed in 1986 that the design was the XC-99, but its clear that D.F MacIntyre was exaggerating its performance and completion in his 1946 speech!

Another later project, the twin-hulled flying boat (shown bottom of the attached, the top drawing is the Concord), is better known. A 140-ton design for 100-passengers with six turboprops for a speed of 300mph.

Robert MacIntyre confirmed that a 15ft-long section of the Concord fuselage has been completed and fully fitted out with cabin interior as a mock-up for prospective customers and work was about to begin on completing the rest of the fuselage just as the project was closed down.
MacFadyen noted that Liberator AM916 was extant at Prestwick until it was scrapped in 1952 and speculated it may have been the planned donor airframe.

 

[Schneiderman]

Although the twin-fuselage concept, from 1944, is generally thought of these days as a flying boat, based on later models and artwork, the initial intent was for it to be a 100-passenger landplane.

 

[PMN1]

I have come across some interesting information, from Air-Britain's Archive magazine, from 1983 by Tom MacFadyen, and a follow-up in a 1986 issue.

MacFadyen states that at the time of the Concord's cancellation in mid-1945 that SAL were working on some other projects:



A licence-built US design capable of seating 360-passengers and powered by British gas turbines. SAL's MD, Group Captain D.F MacIntyre on 19 January 1946 claimed the US airliner was in the last stage of test flights and he described it as a 360-seater capable of a cruising speed of 340mph.

Turbojets or turboprops?

Wonder if anyone working on the Bristol Type 167 heard about this.