- Joined
- 25 July 2007
- Messages
- 4,167
- Reaction score
- 3,835
I am posting this embryonic list more because of all that I don't know rather than what little I've been able to gather. Hopefully other members can shed some light and clarity on my quite incomplete efforts.
BTW, all of this was inspired by the Aircraft from Schneider's Aviméta company thread in Secret Early Aircraft Projects.
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aircraft-from-schneiders-aviméta-company.12935/
Schneider et Cie Aircraft - Participation Henri-Paul, Jean Schneider
Steelworks and shipbuilders Schneider et Cie (aka Établissements Schneider or 'Schneider-Creusot') created a Paris-based aviation division in 1918. This division was intended to make use of Schneider's metalworking expertise in airframe construction - in particular, the use of its own forged aluminum alloy, dubbed 'Alférium'.
In part, the aviation division was also meant to satisfy the flying interests of the sons of company chairman, Eugène II Schneider. As a result, the aviation subsidiary would be known as Participation Henri-Paul, Jean Schneider. Unfortunately, pilot Henri-Paul - or sous-lieutenant Schneider, LH, CdeG, of SPA 49 - was killed in action on 23 Feb 1918. His brother Jean (who had also served as a fighter pilot with SPA 49) administered this Schneider aviation division after the war.
According to period advertisements, Schneider et Cie - as they still refered to themselves - intended to produce "avions & hydravions métalliques multimoteurs" as both "appareils militaires & commerciaux". They were also offering "métallurgie" in the form of high-strength light alloy (sheets, tubes, and profiles) along with ordinary carbon steels, specialty steels, tool steels as well as bronze and brass items.
In December 1926, the Schneider aviation subsidiary was renamed as Aviméta (see separate list, below).
____________________________________________________
Schneider Aircraft Designations
Let confusion reign! It seems that Schneider aircraft designs were given types numbers and a designation prefix of 'Sch.'. (I'm assuming that this assignment was made by officialdom ... but do not know for sure.) Internally, it seems that the firm identified projects by what military programme or specification they were intended to satisfy (at least, that is my guess). This would explain why the first 'designation' seems to be 'S.2' (or S2).
That 'S.2' relates to a requirement for a ground-strafing attack aircraft. That, in itself is a little confusing. For some reason, the STAé of that time used the German-derived term 'Strafing' (instead of, say, mitraillage). And, more to the point, since this was to be an armour-protected airframe, the specific term Blinde should logically have been applied. But it wasn't.
Perhaps, that military 'S' for 'Strafing' designator would have confused less had Schneider types not also been assigned those 'Sch.' prefixes? In any case, we now see programmes S.2 and S.3 being applied as if they were individual type designations. This results in some rather bizarre constructions - like 'Henri-Paul' S.3 (or S3). But the biggest issue is inconsistancy. Eg: in one source, we see the Schneider 'Henri-Paul' bomber referred to as the 'HP' (makes sense) as well as the 'Schneider S.2', 'Sch.2 S3', and 'Sch. 3'. [1] In most other sources, the bomber is called 'Henri-Paul' S.3. Which of any of these nomnclatures are correct?
The final design attributed to Schneider was the Sch. 10M - with the 'M' for 'Métallique'. Why this distinction was felt necessary when all Schneider aircraft to date had metal structures is unclear. It may simply have been an attempt to emphasize metal cladding - earlier designs having had primarily cloth-covered metal structures.
For convenience in this list, I will simply refer to design iterations which seem to lack 'Sch.' designations by their appropriate Programme numbers. (This can be modified if and when new designations are revealed.)
Schneider 'Sch.' Aircraft Designations
(Programme S.2) - (Project) 1921 armoured assault a/c
- (S.2) : 2-seat ground-attack a/c; S.2 = Strafing, 2-places
- (S.2) : Lighter, more manoeuvrable a/c (than 'Henri-Paul')
-- Despite the numeral, 'S.2' was not the same as Sch.2 S.3
-- NB: In reply #3, hesham reports a BN.2 variant*
-- * Improb. for 'Henri-Paul'; could BN.2 be related to S.2?
Sch. 2 - 1922; possibly typo for the built Sch. 3 'Henri-Paul'
- Sch. 2: Dates seem to be identical as for the Sch.3 [1]
- Sch. 2: Online references to nonsensical* 'Sch. 2 S3' [sic]
-- * Assuming Sch.2 is meant to be the above 2-seat a/c
(Programme S.3) - 1922 armoured assault aircraft/bomber; x 1
- (S.3) : 3-seat ground-attack aircraft; S.3 = Strafing, 3-places
- (S.3) : Clearly a reference to the built 'Henri-Paul' prototype
-- NB: 'S.3' only applied to the assault a/c; bomber was a 'BN.4'
-- Designation Sch. 3 is commonly applied to the 'Henri-Paul'
Sch. 3 - 1922 'Henri-Paul'; 4-seat heavy night bomber; x 1
- Sch. 3 : (As planned) 3-seat armoured assault aircraft
- Sch. 3 : (As planned) 2 x 37 mm + 1 x 75 mm cannons
- Sch. 3 : (As built) Reassigned by officialdom as a BN.4*
-- * BN.4 (or BN4) refers to Bomber-Nuit, quatre-places
- Sch. 3 : 4 x 370 hp LD 12Da (as push-pulls); span 30.00 m
- Sch. 3 : 3-bay biplane; fabric-covered metal; triple tails
- Sch. 3 : Seems to be redesignated as Aviméta's Type 21
Sch. 4 - Sch. 5 - (??) hypothetical designations
Sch. 10M - 1925 avion quadriplace de combat prototype; x 1
- Sch. 10M: (Métallique) Low-wing; pod & twin-boom fuselage
- Sch. 10M: 2 x 400 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 12Db; span 18.50 m
- Sch. 10M: Cantilever monoplane; 4-seat; trousered main u/c
____________________________________________________
[1] From the Aviation Le Havre blog; 25 novembre 2010. This article's author, 'boboce' lists references but commenters do not.
-- http://aviation-le-havre.over-blog.com/article-le-schneider-henri-paul-60856006.html
[2] In the article linked to above, commenter 'BORGET Michel' states that the completed 'Sch.2 S3' was rolled out at the end of August 1922. That dating is a perfect match for the 'Henri-Paul' which is most often assigned the designation 'Sch. 3' or 'S.3'. So, was this a simple typographical error? We much consider the source. I presume that 'BORGET Michel' is Le Fana de l'Aviation author, Michel Borget. If so, he 'knows his oignons'. Therefore, we might as easily conclude that the more widely accepted Sch.3 designation for the 'Henri-Paul' is the one in error. Sacrebleu!
M. Borget goes on to say (in translation) that "the Sch.2 S3 was assembled in the Schneider factory in Gonfreville-L'Orcher, with parts made at the Schneider foundry workshop in Montchanin." (This corrects the claims that components for the 'Henri-Paul' had been assembled at the then-incomplete Bléville field.)
____________________________________________________
Aviméta (Société pour la construction d'Avions Métalliques)
As noted above, in December 1926, Schneider's aviation division was rebranded as Aviméta. Jean Schneider became administrator of the rebranded firm, Louis Delasalle was head of the design office, and Eugène Lepère was chief engineer. None of the Aviméta aircraft designs proved commercially successful. In 1929, the Groupe Schneider withdrew all further financial support for Aviméta, forcing the société to file for bankruptcy.
Aviméta Aircraft Designations
Aviméta aircraft designs were given specific type numbers. The first known number is for the Aviméta 21 - which seems to have been little more than a re-numbering of the Schneider 'Henri-Paul' biplane bomber. These type numbers were obviously sequential but there are large gaps between the type numbers or number groups. (Whether those gaps represent unassigned numbers or 'missing' designations, remains to be seen.)
Aviméta Aircraft Type Numbers
Aviméta 21 - 192? metal; twin-engined; biplane bomber; x 1
- Type 21 : Seems to be redesignated Schneider 'Henri-Paul'
- 'Henri-Paul': 4 x 370 hp LD 12Da push-pulls; span 30.00 m
- 'Henri-Paul': 3-bay biplane; fabric/Alférium-covered struct.
Aviméta 82 - (Project?) Single-seat fighter; (??) no details
- Type 82 : Preceded Type 88; possibly a related design (?)
Aviméta 88 - 1927 single-engined parasol night fighter; x 1
- Type 88 : All-metal monoplane w/ corrugated-skin constr.
- Type 88 : 1 x 560 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Hb V12; span 17.00 m
- Type 88 : Tandem 2-seater; fixed, cantilevered main gear
-- To 1925 C.2 spec.; overweight; development abandoned
Aviméta 92 - 1928 single-engined light transport/tourer; x 1
- Type 90 - (Project) Preliminary design; led to Type 92
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aircraft-from-schneiders-aviméta-company.12935/#post-397843
- Type 91 : (Project) (??) no details; Type 90 variant
- Type 92 : All-metal monoplane; corrugated-skin wing constr.
- Type 92 : 1 x 120 hp Salmson 9Ac radial; span 12.60 m
- Type 92 : 4-seater; high, braced, constant-chord wings
- Type 92-230: Transatlantic* variant for Michel Détroyat
- Type 92-230: 1 x 220 hp** Wright Whirlwind J-5 9-cyl.
-- * No Transatlantic attempt was even made with 92-230
-- * But Détroyat flew Algiers-Paris non-stop in 9 hr 55 min
-- ** 230 rating measured chevaux-vapeur (bhp), not hp
- Type 93 : (Project) (??) no details; Type 90/92 variant
- Type 93 : Possibly internal designation for 92-230 (??)
- Type 94 : Re-engined Aviméta 92; 230 hp Lorraine 7 Ma
- Type 95 : Re-engined Aviméta 92; engine type unknown
-- Type 94 & 95 underwent airworthiness certificate tests
Aviméta 120 - (Project) Attack bomber; led to Aviméta 121
- Type 120: Intended to satisfy the 1928 M.4 requirement
- Type 120: 2 x 450 hp Lorraine 12 Eb Courlis; span (??) m
- Type 120: (??) No other details
Aviméta 121 - 1928 multi-seat, multi-role (BCR)* prototype
- Type 121: All-metal monoplane; corrogated-skin wing constr.
- Type 121: 2 x 450 hp Lorraine 12 Eb Courlis;** span 21.80 m
- Type 121: High, thick-sectioned monoplane; spatted u/c
-- * BCR = Bombardement, Chasse, Reconnaissance
-- * Or = Bombardement, Chasseur, Reconnaissance
-- ** Some sources list 2 x 150 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 8A V8s
- Type 121(?): (Project) Twin-float recce/torpedo-bomber
Aviméta 130 - (Project) Single-engined, high-wing airliner
- Type 130: Eugène Lepère commercial transport concept
- Type 130: 1 x 450-to-600 hp engine (type is not spec'd)*
- Type 130: Eclipsed when Type 132 chosen for constr'n
-- * hesham says 450 hp Lorraine 12 Eb Courlis W-12
Aviméta 131 - (Project) Twin-engined, high-wing airliner
- Type 131: Eugène Lepère commercial transport concept
- Type 131: 2 x 380 hp Gnome-Rhône Jupiter 9-cyl.
- Type 131: Eclipsed when Type 132 chosen for constr'n
Aviméta 132 - 1928 trimotor monoplane; 8 pax airliner; x 1
- Type 132: Trimotor variant within Lepère's Type 13x series
- Type 132: 3 x 230 hp Salmson 9Ab radials; span 21.90 m
- Type 132: High cantilever wings; all-metal construction
-- Type 132 proved a mediocre performer due to weight
BTW, all of this was inspired by the Aircraft from Schneider's Aviméta company thread in Secret Early Aircraft Projects.
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aircraft-from-schneiders-aviméta-company.12935/
Schneider et Cie Aircraft - Participation Henri-Paul, Jean Schneider
Steelworks and shipbuilders Schneider et Cie (aka Établissements Schneider or 'Schneider-Creusot') created a Paris-based aviation division in 1918. This division was intended to make use of Schneider's metalworking expertise in airframe construction - in particular, the use of its own forged aluminum alloy, dubbed 'Alférium'.
In part, the aviation division was also meant to satisfy the flying interests of the sons of company chairman, Eugène II Schneider. As a result, the aviation subsidiary would be known as Participation Henri-Paul, Jean Schneider. Unfortunately, pilot Henri-Paul - or sous-lieutenant Schneider, LH, CdeG, of SPA 49 - was killed in action on 23 Feb 1918. His brother Jean (who had also served as a fighter pilot with SPA 49) administered this Schneider aviation division after the war.
According to period advertisements, Schneider et Cie - as they still refered to themselves - intended to produce "avions & hydravions métalliques multimoteurs" as both "appareils militaires & commerciaux". They were also offering "métallurgie" in the form of high-strength light alloy (sheets, tubes, and profiles) along with ordinary carbon steels, specialty steels, tool steels as well as bronze and brass items.
In December 1926, the Schneider aviation subsidiary was renamed as Aviméta (see separate list, below).
____________________________________________________
Schneider Aircraft Designations
Let confusion reign! It seems that Schneider aircraft designs were given types numbers and a designation prefix of 'Sch.'. (I'm assuming that this assignment was made by officialdom ... but do not know for sure.) Internally, it seems that the firm identified projects by what military programme or specification they were intended to satisfy (at least, that is my guess). This would explain why the first 'designation' seems to be 'S.2' (or S2).
That 'S.2' relates to a requirement for a ground-strafing attack aircraft. That, in itself is a little confusing. For some reason, the STAé of that time used the German-derived term 'Strafing' (instead of, say, mitraillage). And, more to the point, since this was to be an armour-protected airframe, the specific term Blinde should logically have been applied. But it wasn't.
Perhaps, that military 'S' for 'Strafing' designator would have confused less had Schneider types not also been assigned those 'Sch.' prefixes? In any case, we now see programmes S.2 and S.3 being applied as if they were individual type designations. This results in some rather bizarre constructions - like 'Henri-Paul' S.3 (or S3). But the biggest issue is inconsistancy. Eg: in one source, we see the Schneider 'Henri-Paul' bomber referred to as the 'HP' (makes sense) as well as the 'Schneider S.2', 'Sch.2 S3', and 'Sch. 3'. [1] In most other sources, the bomber is called 'Henri-Paul' S.3. Which of any of these nomnclatures are correct?
The final design attributed to Schneider was the Sch. 10M - with the 'M' for 'Métallique'. Why this distinction was felt necessary when all Schneider aircraft to date had metal structures is unclear. It may simply have been an attempt to emphasize metal cladding - earlier designs having had primarily cloth-covered metal structures.
For convenience in this list, I will simply refer to design iterations which seem to lack 'Sch.' designations by their appropriate Programme numbers. (This can be modified if and when new designations are revealed.)
Schneider 'Sch.' Aircraft Designations
(Programme S.2) - (Project) 1921 armoured assault a/c
- (S.2) : 2-seat ground-attack a/c; S.2 = Strafing, 2-places
- (S.2) : Lighter, more manoeuvrable a/c (than 'Henri-Paul')
-- Despite the numeral, 'S.2' was not the same as Sch.2 S.3
-- NB: In reply #3, hesham reports a BN.2 variant*
-- * Improb. for 'Henri-Paul'; could BN.2 be related to S.2?
Sch. 2 - 1922; possibly typo for the built Sch. 3 'Henri-Paul'
- Sch. 2: Dates seem to be identical as for the Sch.3 [1]
- Sch. 2: Online references to nonsensical* 'Sch. 2 S3' [sic]
-- * Assuming Sch.2 is meant to be the above 2-seat a/c
(Programme S.3) - 1922 armoured assault aircraft/bomber; x 1
- (S.3) : 3-seat ground-attack aircraft; S.3 = Strafing, 3-places
- (S.3) : Clearly a reference to the built 'Henri-Paul' prototype
-- NB: 'S.3' only applied to the assault a/c; bomber was a 'BN.4'
-- Designation Sch. 3 is commonly applied to the 'Henri-Paul'
Sch. 3 - 1922 'Henri-Paul'; 4-seat heavy night bomber; x 1
- Sch. 3 : (As planned) 3-seat armoured assault aircraft
- Sch. 3 : (As planned) 2 x 37 mm + 1 x 75 mm cannons
- Sch. 3 : (As built) Reassigned by officialdom as a BN.4*
-- * BN.4 (or BN4) refers to Bomber-Nuit, quatre-places
- Sch. 3 : 4 x 370 hp LD 12Da (as push-pulls); span 30.00 m
- Sch. 3 : 3-bay biplane; fabric-covered metal; triple tails
- Sch. 3 : Seems to be redesignated as Aviméta's Type 21
Sch. 4 - Sch. 5 - (??) hypothetical designations
Sch. 10M - 1925 avion quadriplace de combat prototype; x 1
- Sch. 10M: (Métallique) Low-wing; pod & twin-boom fuselage
- Sch. 10M: 2 x 400 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 12Db; span 18.50 m
- Sch. 10M: Cantilever monoplane; 4-seat; trousered main u/c
____________________________________________________
[1] From the Aviation Le Havre blog; 25 novembre 2010. This article's author, 'boboce' lists references but commenters do not.
-- http://aviation-le-havre.over-blog.com/article-le-schneider-henri-paul-60856006.html
[2] In the article linked to above, commenter 'BORGET Michel' states that the completed 'Sch.2 S3' was rolled out at the end of August 1922. That dating is a perfect match for the 'Henri-Paul' which is most often assigned the designation 'Sch. 3' or 'S.3'. So, was this a simple typographical error? We much consider the source. I presume that 'BORGET Michel' is Le Fana de l'Aviation author, Michel Borget. If so, he 'knows his oignons'. Therefore, we might as easily conclude that the more widely accepted Sch.3 designation for the 'Henri-Paul' is the one in error. Sacrebleu!
M. Borget goes on to say (in translation) that "the Sch.2 S3 was assembled in the Schneider factory in Gonfreville-L'Orcher, with parts made at the Schneider foundry workshop in Montchanin." (This corrects the claims that components for the 'Henri-Paul' had been assembled at the then-incomplete Bléville field.)
____________________________________________________
Aviméta (Société pour la construction d'Avions Métalliques)
As noted above, in December 1926, Schneider's aviation division was rebranded as Aviméta. Jean Schneider became administrator of the rebranded firm, Louis Delasalle was head of the design office, and Eugène Lepère was chief engineer. None of the Aviméta aircraft designs proved commercially successful. In 1929, the Groupe Schneider withdrew all further financial support for Aviméta, forcing the société to file for bankruptcy.
Aviméta Aircraft Designations
Aviméta aircraft designs were given specific type numbers. The first known number is for the Aviméta 21 - which seems to have been little more than a re-numbering of the Schneider 'Henri-Paul' biplane bomber. These type numbers were obviously sequential but there are large gaps between the type numbers or number groups. (Whether those gaps represent unassigned numbers or 'missing' designations, remains to be seen.)
Aviméta Aircraft Type Numbers
Aviméta 21 - 192? metal; twin-engined; biplane bomber; x 1
- Type 21 : Seems to be redesignated Schneider 'Henri-Paul'
- 'Henri-Paul': 4 x 370 hp LD 12Da push-pulls; span 30.00 m
- 'Henri-Paul': 3-bay biplane; fabric/Alférium-covered struct.
Aviméta 82 - (Project?) Single-seat fighter; (??) no details
- Type 82 : Preceded Type 88; possibly a related design (?)
Aviméta 88 - 1927 single-engined parasol night fighter; x 1
- Type 88 : All-metal monoplane w/ corrugated-skin constr.
- Type 88 : 1 x 560 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Hb V12; span 17.00 m
- Type 88 : Tandem 2-seater; fixed, cantilevered main gear
-- To 1925 C.2 spec.; overweight; development abandoned
Aviméta 92 - 1928 single-engined light transport/tourer; x 1
- Type 90 - (Project) Preliminary design; led to Type 92
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aircraft-from-schneiders-aviméta-company.12935/#post-397843
- Type 91 : (Project) (??) no details; Type 90 variant
- Type 92 : All-metal monoplane; corrugated-skin wing constr.
- Type 92 : 1 x 120 hp Salmson 9Ac radial; span 12.60 m
- Type 92 : 4-seater; high, braced, constant-chord wings
- Type 92-230: Transatlantic* variant for Michel Détroyat
- Type 92-230: 1 x 220 hp** Wright Whirlwind J-5 9-cyl.
-- * No Transatlantic attempt was even made with 92-230
-- * But Détroyat flew Algiers-Paris non-stop in 9 hr 55 min
-- ** 230 rating measured chevaux-vapeur (bhp), not hp
- Type 93 : (Project) (??) no details; Type 90/92 variant
- Type 93 : Possibly internal designation for 92-230 (??)
- Type 94 : Re-engined Aviméta 92; 230 hp Lorraine 7 Ma
- Type 95 : Re-engined Aviméta 92; engine type unknown
-- Type 94 & 95 underwent airworthiness certificate tests
Aviméta 120 - (Project) Attack bomber; led to Aviméta 121
- Type 120: Intended to satisfy the 1928 M.4 requirement
- Type 120: 2 x 450 hp Lorraine 12 Eb Courlis; span (??) m
- Type 120: (??) No other details
Aviméta 121 - 1928 multi-seat, multi-role (BCR)* prototype
- Type 121: All-metal monoplane; corrogated-skin wing constr.
- Type 121: 2 x 450 hp Lorraine 12 Eb Courlis;** span 21.80 m
- Type 121: High, thick-sectioned monoplane; spatted u/c
-- * BCR = Bombardement, Chasse, Reconnaissance
-- * Or = Bombardement, Chasseur, Reconnaissance
-- ** Some sources list 2 x 150 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 8A V8s
- Type 121(?): (Project) Twin-float recce/torpedo-bomber
Aviméta 130 - (Project) Single-engined, high-wing airliner
- Type 130: Eugène Lepère commercial transport concept
- Type 130: 1 x 450-to-600 hp engine (type is not spec'd)*
- Type 130: Eclipsed when Type 132 chosen for constr'n
-- * hesham says 450 hp Lorraine 12 Eb Courlis W-12
Aviméta 131 - (Project) Twin-engined, high-wing airliner
- Type 131: Eugène Lepère commercial transport concept
- Type 131: 2 x 380 hp Gnome-Rhône Jupiter 9-cyl.
- Type 131: Eclipsed when Type 132 chosen for constr'n
Aviméta 132 - 1928 trimotor monoplane; 8 pax airliner; x 1
- Type 132: Trimotor variant within Lepère's Type 13x series
- Type 132: 3 x 230 hp Salmson 9Ab radials; span 21.90 m
- Type 132: High cantilever wings; all-metal construction
-- Type 132 proved a mediocre performer due to weight
Last edited:
