Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are purchased by the Netherlands instead of continuing the 1047 battlecruiser project.

[Volkodav]

My train of thought that led down this dark twisted path

• The Netherlands feared aggression from Japan more than from Germany
• Germany sold the incomplete Hipper, Lutzow, to the Soviet Union before declaring war on them
• The Schanhorsts were disappointing sea boats and out gunned by pretty much every RN battleship meaning they may have been keen to acquire something superior
• If Germany was already planning to invade the Netherland the assumption may have been they would get the ships back following an armistice
• If they weren't planning to invade it could have been seen as a way to strengthen relationships with the Netherlands and maybe make them an ally.

Highly improbable but a fun thought, even had it happened I imagine the Japanese would have targeted them as they did PoW and Repulse. Had they not been taken out by airpower the battles around the region could have become very interesting with the two ships providing significant overmatch, had they survived those engagements other following battles could have been quite different with two modern ships with I imagine an outstanding Dutch improved air defence battery.

 

[SSgtC]

For how long would they be usable though? With Germany allied with Japan, even if they don't invade the Netherlands, how is the Royal Netherlands Navy supposed to acquire spare parts and gun ammunition for the ships? Hell, even if Germany doesn't ally with Japan, I don't see Germany placing a real high priority on building spare parts for two foreign warships or building main gun ammo for them. They have much more pressing domestic needs.

 

[Volkodav]

For how long would they be usable though? With Germany allied with Japan, even if they don't invade the Netherlands, how is the Royal Netherlands Navy supposed to acquire spare parts and gun ammunition for the ships? Hell, even if Germany doesn't ally with Japan, I don't see Germany placing a real high priority on building spare parts for two foreign warships or building main gun ammo for them. They have much more pressing domestic needs.

True but other Dutch as well as French ships were operated successfully throughout the war by the allies, it wouldn't have been easy but doable. The Dutch battlecruisers were always intended to operate in SEA so appropriate infrastructure would have been needed irrespective of whether new ships were built or these ships acquired.

People would be surprised how ad hoc ship maintenance used to be (and sadly still can be) with each hull treated more as a unique structure with limited spares holding and a lot of "as required" fabrication and fitting. Very limited (if any) use of replaceable parts let alone rotable parts pools, if it was needed it would be fabricated or replaced with something that was available.

 

[EwenS]

Both the USA and Britain manufactured 15” shells for Richelieu at different times during WW2 and presumably other French naval guns as well.

 

[1Big Rich]

My train of thought that led down this dark twisted path

• The Netherlands feared aggression from Japan more than from Germany
• Germany sold the incomplete Hipper, Lutzow, to the Soviet Union before declaring war on them
• The Schanhorsts were disappointing sea boats and out gunned by pretty much every RN battleship meaning they may have been keen to acquire something superior
• If Germany was already planning to invade the Netherland the assumption may have been they would get the ships back following an armistice
• If they weren't planning to invade it could have been seen as a way to strengthen relationships with the Netherlands and maybe make them an ally.

Highly improbable but a fun thought, even had it happened I imagine the Japanese would have targeted them as they did PoW and Repulse. Had they not been taken out by airpower the battles around the region could have become very interesting with the two ships providing significant overmatch, had they survived those engagements other following battles could have been quite different with two modern ships with I imagine an outstanding Dutch improved air defence battery.

Interesting scenario!

Improbable, but if Hitler is gotten rid of somehow (coup, illness, crash, etc.) maybe the likelihood goes up a notch? After all, once the Anglo-German Naval Agreement is signed, Germany can have full-sized capital ships. Why keep ships that are essentially a political compromise when better, more capable ships can be had? Why keep a second-class capital ship when the world's leading seapower has just given you permission for first class?

Both the USA and Britain manufactured 15” shells for Richelieu at different times during WW2 and presumably other French naval guns as well.

IIRC, 11.1in shell production was going to be started in the NEI and a 40,000 ton drydock was going to be built there as well.

The US and UK both supported Dutch and French ships during the war, despite the metric/English measurements obstacles.

Regards,

 

[lordroel]

• If they weren't planning to invade it could have been seen as a way to strengthen relationships with the Netherlands and maybe make them an ally.

If they where in the Netherlands and if they where and not leave to the United Kingdom, they would most likely be scuttled yo prevent them from falling into the hands of the Germans.

 

[SSgtC]

They

• If they weren't planning to invade it could have been seen as a way to strengthen relationships with the Netherlands and maybe make them an ally.

If they where in the Netherlands and if they where and not leave to the United Kingdom, they would most likely be scuttled yo prevent them from falling into the hands of the Germans.

They wanted them to serve in the Netherlands East Indies, so that's likely where they'll be. Which means they're probably sunk somewhere in the Pacific by Japanese torpedo bombers. Maybe they're sent to Singapore with Force Z.

 

[lordroel]

They

• If they weren't planning to invade it could have been seen as a way to strengthen relationships with the Netherlands and maybe make them an ally.

If they where in the Netherlands and if they where and not leave to the United Kingdom, they would most likely be scuttled yo prevent them from falling into the hands of the Germans.

They wanted to serve in the Netherlands East Indies, so that's likely where they'll be. Which means they're probably sunk somewhere in the Pacific by Japanese torpedo bombers. Maybe they're sent to Singapore with Force Z.

Ore in Java Sea, but that would mean the Japanese have to respond and send some bigger guns to sink them then OTL Battle of Java Sea/

 

[SSgtC]

They

• If they weren't planning to invade it could have been seen as a way to strengthen relationships with the Netherlands and maybe make them an ally.

If they where in the Netherlands and if they where and not leave to the United Kingdom, they would most likely be scuttled yo prevent them from falling into the hands of the Germans.

They wanted to serve in the Netherlands East Indies, so that's likely where they'll be. Which means they're probably sunk somewhere in the Pacific by Japanese torpedo bombers. Maybe they're sent to Singapore with Force Z.

Ore in Java Sea, but that would mean the Japanese have to respond and send some bigger guns to sink them then OTL Battle of Java Sea/

Even just wrecking their upperworks is probably enough to get the Dutch to scuttle them given the lack of repair facilities available to them

 

[Apophenia]

Out of curiosity, had the Netherlands been left as a neutral but for some reason was unable to produce shells for the Nederlands Indië Eskader, would imported shells for the Bofors 283 mm M/12 gun have worked for the German SK C/34s?

 

[Volkodav]

They

• If they weren't planning to invade it could have been seen as a way to strengthen relationships with the Netherlands and maybe make them an ally.

If they where in the Netherlands and if they where and not leave to the United Kingdom, they would most likely be scuttled yo prevent them from falling into the hands of the Germans.

They wanted to serve in the Netherlands East Indies, so that's likely where they'll be. Which means they're probably sunk somewhere in the Pacific by Japanese torpedo bombers. Maybe they're sent to Singapore with Force Z.

Ore in Java Sea, but that would mean the Japanese have to respond and send some bigger guns to sink them then OTL Battle of Java Sea/

Even just wrecking their upperworks is probably enough to get the Dutch to scuttle them given the lack of repair facilities available to them

Or run to Sydney or Pearl Harbor to fight another day