Saturn V...a question: What was classified about it?

[greenmartian2017]

I have been reading some materials recently that allulded to the possibility of there being classified materials relating to the Saturn V rocket (but not explicitly stating what). I would like to know what about the Saturn V was (or may have been) considered classified, or sensitive....

Your comments welcomed.

 

[Archibald]

No idea. NASA has a mandate to be a fully transparent agency (unlike the bullshit seen in so many movies from Armoire-a-guidon to Apollo 18 to Transformerds... )

 

[Michel Van]

the irrational fear in USA
that North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela can rebuild Saturn V and Conquer the Moon or Put Orbital Weapon platforms over US

India, Russia and China are also include by US, but those three "develop" there own hardware and not need copy cat 50 years old technology...

 

[TomS]

At one time, there were bits of the F-1 motor that were classified, such as the following manual related to the fuel injectors: http://heroicrelics.org/info/f-1/f-1-supp.html

 

[greenmartian2017]

Thanks Tom S. for this. Much appreciated.

Yes, I was going to say maybe there were elements related to the F-1 and J-2 motors (turbines and injectors), the welding/metallurgy involved in the making of the rocket engines, and probably elements about the guidance system (something relating to the control of such a huge rocket).

But I can only suspect these things.

 

[blackstar]

A lot of planning documents often were stamped "Confidential," which is the level below Secret. Rocket engines were also used on missiles, so specific engineering data about engine design could have been classified at the Secret level.

I know somebody who works at Vandenberg AFB who a few years ago used to teach classes there about the Thor missile to various personnel from various agencies (guess). The reason was that an obsolete Thor missile was still in many ways equivalent to the current rocket engine technology used by North Korean, so just because it's "old" to us doesn't mean that somebody else won't use it against us.

 

[Michel Van]

In begin 1960s the Saturn V program was highly classified and Confidential
this had several reason:
Parts like F-1 Engine program was under USAF, then transfer to NASA, but still under classified.
other part like J-2 Engine and Construction of Saturn V used so new Technology, it got classified for potential military use.
This was to prevent the KGB (in 1960s) to get technology (special F-1 engine)
In begin of Shuttle Program the F-1A engine and J-2S were consider as main engines
and since the Program was Join Venture of NASA and USAF = highly classified

Years later the Information declassified in around 2010s and put by NASA on there NTRS
At Frist no problem, until the FBI arrest a Chinese Student who used NTRS extensive
and protected his Laptop with high grade encoding
At Capitol Hill panic broke lose and NTRS went offline
with argumentation that this "Technology" could used by enemies how want to harm the USA
After NTRS got Online it was "Cleaned" up

For what ?
The Chinese Student only protected his porno collection on his laptop...

 

[Grey Havoc]

Parts of the guidance system and other elements of the rocket & support infrastructure were also classified or at least tightly restricted. As well as that, there were a number of military sub-variants and derivatives of the Saturn V family designed, well into the 1980s.

 

[Michel Van]

Parts of the guidance system and other elements of the rocket & support infrastructure were also classified or at least tightly restricted.

Oh yes USAF and IBM had some issue with that
The Titan II ICBM guidance system (1961) needed upgrade and replacement of used parts in 1977
It was highly classified under USAF
IBM send a not-classified answer "We produce those obsolete parts no more, since 10 years !"

 

[greenmartian2017]

Grey Havoc, Is it possible to know exactly what part of the Saturn V's guidance system was classified? Could anyone talk to that? I wasn't aware that some of the support infrastructure was also considered sensitive. If it is possible to know, what parts of the infrastructure? Thanks for any additional comments.

Also, thanks guys for providing your comments in this thread.

 

[Archibald]

I can see two critical technologies
- Fairchild Semiconductors Apollo Guidance Computer
- the CSM/ LM digital fly-by-wire, the very first of its kind.

Yuri Andropov (and his KGB) probably would have sold his grandmother for these technologies.

Incidentally, out of a scission at Fairchild Semiconductors was born Intel in July 1968, and two years down the road: the 4004, then 8008, microchips.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Add to that things like the ground control computers, data and voice communication encryption systems (the latter though being used in the Apollo spacecraft itself), and certain elements & aspects of the various flight, orbital, and deep space tracking systems including the more secured parts of the rocket telemetry. Also certain alloys, construction techniques, and such used in the different stages and separately in things like launch gantries. Though I dare say the Soviets probably had something of a field day when the Freedom of Information act came into effect during the late 1960s and especially during the 1970s.

 

[Michel Van]

what part of the Saturn V's guidance system was classified?

certain The Launch Vehicle Digital Computer or LVDC by IBM
it was State of art Computer that run the Saturn V flight Program
A 14bit CPU run with 2.048 MHz, executing incredible 12190 instructions per second.
and four memory modules, with a total capacity of 16,384 words

The ST-124-M3 inertial platform
Used various version in Redstone MRBM, Saturn I/IB/V and Pershing SRBM
highly classified Military hardware

The command communications system must be also Confidential
You not want someone outside NASA to know how send a Saturn V the Flight Termination order

 

[Grey Havoc]

The command communications system must be also Confidential
You not want someone outside NASA to know how send a Saturn V the Flight Termination order

Yes, access to the range safety package (in the Saturn V located primarily in the third [S-IVB] stage if I'm not mistaken) is definitively something you don't want falling into the wrong hands!

EDIT: Regarding the destruct system, here's some info on its development and employment;

Moonport, CH9-6

 

[Byeman]

I have been reading some materials recently that allulded to the possibility of there being classified materials relating to the Saturn V rocket (but not explicitly stating what). I would like to know what about the Saturn V was (or may have been) considered classified, or sensitive....

Your comments welcomed.

All documents related to launch vehicles in the early 1960's were classified.
Most Saturn documents from that timeframe were marked classified.

 

[Byeman]

No idea. NASA has a mandate to be a fully transparent agency (unlike the bullshit seen in so many movies from Armoire-a-guidon to Apollo 18 to Transformerds... )

Not true. NASA can't release ITAR or propriety information. And NASA does do some work with the military that is classified. Also, NASA has instruments hosted on classified spacecraft and likewise, NASA has hosted classified experiments on some of its spacecraft.

 

[Archibald]

It had been a while since I didn't pissed Jim off twice in a day. And it usually happened at NASAspaceflight forums. Life is full of surprises !

 

[Nik]

There used to be a grim joke, IIRC, that the only 'classified' part of Saturn 5 is who destroyed the jigs, templates & blue-prints...

 

[Yellow Palace]

NASA can't release ITAR or propriety information.

There was allegedly a time when you could buy Saturn V blueprints from the NASA gift shop. But only if you were a US citizen, because they were considered to be under ITAR restrictions. I'm not sure it's true, but I'm not sure it isn't - ITAR can lead to some very strange situations.

 

[Archibald]

Did ITAR existed in the 60's ?

I thought it was a recent thing from the 90's, when it become a major PITA. When US satellites went to Long March rockets, and after some launch failures, some sensitive electronics from the wrecked (Hughes) satellite ended into chinese hands... triggering a major shitstorm in Congress, and a lot of hassles since then.

 

[Nik]

"When US satellites went to Long March rockets, and after some launch failures,..."
snark:
You mean they didn't just launch a box full of sand for their RSO to scatter ??
/

 

[Archibald]

I didn't get the joke...

 

[Michel Van]

I didn't get the joke...

Nik means that old conspiracy plot:

That Chinese not launch the US satellite
but had failure with box of sand and scraps in Payload faring
while the Chinese took the US satellite a part for reverse Engineering...

 

[CVeRiTy]

AFAIK, the LVDC schematics and software are still unavailable today.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The pieces I'd expect to have the most military application would be the guidance systems.

Modern F1s could be made a bit lighter, since we can feed the pressure questions into a computer and have it spit out answers that are more precise, but the engine bell is a simple mathematical curve.