Saracen in Canada?

[Maury Markowitz]

Check out this interesting photo:

Collection-Item - Ingenium

CSTMC Collection Item

ingeniumcanada.org

It purports to be the world's first mortar-locating radar, apparently a Canadian invention and produced at CAL's purpose-built plant in Scarborough (now row houses, naturally).

My question: that is a Saracen, right? Googling MPQ-501 turns up many images that might make this more clear. This would have been just introduced at the time, and I've never heard of them in Canada before.

 

[kaiserbill]

It is a Saracen.
Just on anti-mortar radar in general... If I recall correctly, it was used in the Korean war already.
Your link states this equipment dates from 1954, so I don't think it was the first in the world.
Perhaps first to do certain things, or being mobile perhaps?

 

[EwenS]

It dates further back than that. Mortar locating radars seem to have begun to be used from late 1944.

Target Acquisition & Counter Bombardment

British artillery intelligence and counter battery in World War 2

nigelef.tripod.com

 

[Apophenia]

The radar on that Saracen is the AN/MPQ-501 Counter-Mortar Radar developed by Canada's National Research Council. Final engineering (and production) was to be by Raytheon Canada Limited - but the data plate says made up Canadian Arsenals Ltd. (with a date of 1957).

The original Canadian Army plan was to mount the AN/MPQ-501 on the domestic Bobcat APC, FV603 Saracen, and the unarmoured GMC M135CDN 6x6 truck. Attached photos were posted on the Maple Leaf Up site by member Robin Craig.

There were two FV603s - MOD Vehicle Registration Numbers 30BA07 and 80BA52. The latter is preserved at the Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa. Robin Craig speculated that 30BA07's radar was moved onto an M113A1CDN.

FV603 Saracen - MLU FORUM

FV603 Saracen The Armour Forum

www.mapleleafup.net

Years back, Paul Fredenburg of Trackjam Models published some photos of one of six Canadian Forces M113A1s fitted with the AN/MPQ-501 radar (which received no special designation, AFAIK). The radar carriers were retired c.1988 and the M113A1CDNs returned to standard APC configuration.

Armorama :: M113A1 with AN/MPQ-501 Radar

Armorama.com is the largest online community of Armor/AFV modelers on the Internet.

armorama.kitmaker.net

According to Fredenburg, an AN/MPQ-501 is on display at CFB Shilo in the Royal Canadian Artillery Museum. The radar set doesn't currently show on the RCA Museum's collections page (perhaps in storage awaiting restoration?). That set would be one of those removed from the M113A1CDNs ... wonder if it originated with 30BA07?

 

[Maury Markowitz]

Just on anti-mortar radar in general... If I recall correctly, it was used in the Korean war already.
Your link states this equipment dates from 1954, so I don't think it was the first in the world.
Perhaps first to do certain things, or being mobile perhaps?

The first "real" motar locator based on Foster scanner I believe.

The earlier examples posted here were, AFAIK, conventional lock-follow systems, mostly adapted from the SCR-584. These required the operator to point the radar in the general location within a few degrees and then try to catch the mortar as it passed through the beam and then quickly lock on.

The 501 used a wide beam that caught the mortar basically anywhere in front of it and required much less effort to work.

 

[Maury Markowitz]

The original Canadian Army plan was to mount the AN/MPQ-501 on the domestic Bobcat APC,

Oh god, the world's worst APC. Not only does it deafen you so you can't hear the commander order you out, if you do hear him you trip on the drive shaft housing and knock out your teeth on the door.

Thanks for the notes, I'm going to track down those refs if I can.

 

[riggerrob]

The original Canadian Army plan was to mount the AN/MPQ-501 on the domestic Bobcat APC,

Oh god, the world's worst APC. Not only does it deafen you so you can't hear the commander order you out, if you do hear him you trip on the drive shaft housing and knock out your teeth on the door.

Thanks for the notes, I'm going to track down those refs if I can.

Yes, sadly, the "poor bloody infantry" were relegated to "priority last" when they designed the Bobcat. The door sill was too high and then they had to crawl forward - over the rear axle - before they could find a seat in a troop compartment dominated by a loud drive shaft.
Think of Bobcat as the Canadian Army's version of the Avro Arrow.
Hah!
Hah!

 

[Fluff]

The original Canadian Army plan was to mount the AN/MPQ-501 on the domestic Bobcat APC,

Oh god, the world's worst APC. Not only does it deafen you so you can't hear the commander order you out, if you do hear him you trip on the drive shaft housing and knock out your teeth on the door.

Thanks for the notes, I'm going to track down those refs if I can.

Yes, sadly, the "poor bloody infantry" were relegated to "priority last" when they designed the Bobcat. The door sill was too high and then they had to crawl forward - over the rear axle - before they could find a seat in a troop compartment dominated by a loud drive shaft.
Think of Bobcat as the Canadian Army's version of the Avro Arrow.
Hah!
Hah!

wow, they put the engine at the front, and the drive at the back???

 

[robunos]

The original Canadian Army plan was to mount the AN/MPQ-501 on the domestic Bobcat APC,

Oh god, the world's worst APC. Not only does it deafen you so you can't hear the commander order you out, if you do hear him you trip on the drive shaft housing and knock out your teeth on the door.

Thanks for the notes, I'm going to track down those refs if I can.

Yes, sadly, the "poor bloody infantry" were relegated to "priority last" when they designed the Bobcat. The door sill was too high and then they had to crawl forward - over the rear axle - before they could find a seat in a troop compartment dominated by a loud drive shaft.
Think of Bobcat as the Canadian Army's version of the Avro Arrow.
Hah!
Hah!

wow, they put the engine at the front, and the drive at the back???

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/canadian-xa-20-apc.1929/post-242829

cheers,
Robin.

 

[riggerrob]

Yes, They installed the engine in the front of Bobcat, but they decided not to mount the transmission and and final drive in the front. The most popular explanation was that the transmission and final drive were too bulky to mount in the forward engine compartment.
I suspect that a second motivation was to balance the Bobcat for swimming.
A third possible explanation is Leyland of Canada's engineers were extrapolating from Bren Gun Carrier and kangaroo conversions while ignoring US Marine Corps experience with amphibious Amtraks.

Mind you, I have always though it silly to mount the engine in one end of a vehicle and the drive axle in the opposite end.