Saab Gripen E/F (Gripen NG)

[arc3371]

Have any specs on this version offered to India been released?

 

[datafuser]

While reading the Gripen story in the Feb 2010 issue of Jane's International Defence Review, I found an interesting part about lowering the Gripen's RCS.

"... further work on this aspect of the Gripen NG's design has included the possibility of installing weapons within conformal fuel tanks in a similar way to that proposed by Boeing as part of the proposed 'Silent Eagle' variant of the F-15."

This remark is by Johan Lehander, head of the Gripen strategy unit at Saab.

The most obvious place to put conformal fuel tanks is the upper fuselage surface, like the F-16E/F Block 60 as shown in the attached graphic. Whether it's worthwhile thing to do is debatable - especially if all you can put inside the weapon CFTs are only two AMRAAMs.

 

[JA37D]

Interesting.

I don't automatically agree that upper fuselage tanks is the most obvious on the NG design.

Remove the 3 centre-fuselage pylons then add conformal tanks on the underside. I think there is room enough for both fuel and two BVR missiles without becoming too "pregnant" looking. Having the wiring already in place on the belly and I suppose with rail launchers on bay doors.

That way they would remove the need for a external droptank and the need for two underwing missiles.

 

[JA37D]

My line of thought in the post above is something like this (attached)...

The red is the current outwards opening gear doors on the NG and the green is what I could think up as a weapons bay/CFT without blocking the engine panel. With weapons wiring and fuel plumbing in place I just think this is one possible option but maybe I am way off... ???

 

[datafuser]

Interesting.

I don't automatically agree that upper fuselage tanks is the most obvious on the NG design.

Remove the 3 centre-fuselage pylons then add conformal tanks on the underside. I think there is room enough for both fuel and two BVR missiles without becoming too "pregnant" looking. Having the wiring already in place on the belly and I suppose with rail launchers on bay doors.

That way they would remove the need for a external droptank and the need for two underwing missiles.

Thanks for your comment.

Replacing 3 centre-fuselage pylons with a CFT seems possible, as long as it does not interfere with main landing gear.

More importantly, I think any weapon CFT that can hold only two BVR AAMs will limit the Silent Gripen to a pure interceptor that must turn back and run away after firing off its two AAMs.

 

[Mike Pryce]

News that the Swiss have selected the Gripen to replace their F-5s, from Flight Global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/switzerland-picks-gripen-for-f-5-replacement-deal-365457/

Seems to make sense as it fits with their off-base strategy, shares the F404 engine with their Hornets (unless it is the NG with the 414) and is cheap!


EDIT: Aviation Week says they are E/F versions, which I assume are NG variants:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2011/11/30/awx_11_30_2011_p0-400145.xml&headline=Gripen%20Beats%20Rafale,%20Typhoon%20for%20Swiss&channel=defense


2nd EDIT: SAAB's website shows the Gripen for Switzerland as an NG (http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Air/Gripen-Fighter-System/Gripen-for-Switzerland/The-Gripen-Fighter/), so I assume that is it, but not confirmed yet. If they have provided the lowest cost bid while launching the NG off the back of this order SAAB have done very well.


3rd EDIT: Some discussion of it being a C/D with NG upgrades: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?84527-Gripen-News-Thread/page200

 

[BAROBA]

Good work SAAB
The Swiss have bought some fine machines

 

[flanker]

Stupid decision. Getting a plane that is worse than the existing F-18's. They are replacing F-5's, but still. You would think they would get a plane that was atleast on the level with F-18.

/rafalemafia

 

[mithril]

i think the swiss made a good choice. they get the best bang for their buck, the fighter is a LWF so their F-5 pilots can transition to it easier, and they get a major increase in combat capability.

 

[Arjen]

From the AW piece:

All three main contenders met the requirements put forward by the services. But the Gripen had several advantages, Maurer says, including price, which leaves money left over for other military needs.

That actually resembles a rational approach to military spending. Scary.

 

[Trident]

Stupid decision. Getting a plane that is worse than the existing F-18's. They are replacing F-5's, but still. You would think they would get a plane that was atleast on the level with F-18.

/rafalemafia

That was not what the Swiss were looking for though - their requirement was for a F-5 replacement which would complement the Hornet for an acceptable price. You may argue that this approach is wrong and that they should have been shopping for a combined F/A-18 AND F-5 successor (with a second, later batch of the same type to eventually replace the Hornets), but that's beside the point.
Apart from what Bill Sweetman has remarked about the Mirage III vs. Draken decision, there is another interesting historical aspect of this - the Swiss air force will finally be getting what is the closest flying analogue to the ALR Piranha (the conceptual similarities to Gripen have been widely noted).

 

[Avimimus]

Except in areas of ground attack, I don't really see how the Gripen is inferior. In fact, it is able to achieve roughly comparable performance on half the thrust. Of course, as a Canadian I have to favour a twin engined design over a single engined one... but I don't really see an argument against the Gripen in this case. The only concern is that the neutral countries might form a Swedish-Swiss alliance and attempt to dominate the world

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Stupid decision. Getting a plane that is worse than the existing F-18's. They are replacing F-5's, but still. You would think they would get a plane that was atleast on the level with F-18.

/rafalemafia

Worse than an F-18 how?

 

[Triton]

Le Temps political cartoon regarding the Gripen selection.

Source:

http://client.globecartoon.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/globecartoon.woa/wa/dessin?id=1002182

 

[circle-5]

And another, by syndicated cartoonist Burki:

 

[Madurai]

Stupid decision. Getting a plane that is worse than the existing F-18's. They are replacing F-5's, but still. You would think they would get a plane that was atleast on the level with F-18.

/rafalemafia

Worse than an F-18 how?

I think the "/rafalemafia" tag was supposed to indicate the sarcasm, there.

 

[Triton]

Saab JAS-39 Gripen weapons options

Source:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/switzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624/

 

[Deino]

Not sure where but I think I read that the JAS-39E/F (!) will be equipped with a DSI-intake configuration instead of the usual one.

Does anyone have more info about that ??

Deino

 

[Sundog]

AW&ST said that it has been reported that it will have the DSI intake, but I haven't seen any confirming evidence.

 

[Triton]

Rough week ahead for Swiss Gripen
Posted by Christina Mackenzie at 2/12/2012 9:13 AM CST

Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3acdbe4d08-e716-4d22-bdef-fb707ccd5610&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

Leaked to the Swiss weekly Le Matin Dimanche , two confidential Swiss Air Force reports conclude that the Swedish-made Gripen combat aircraft does not meet minimal air policing requirements, contrary to declarations made last November by Defense Minister Ueli Maurer who said the Gripen “satisfied Swiss military requirements.”

And also interestingly I was alerted to this by Brazilian media reports which, with a decision to be made soon in their own nation's combat aircraft tender, are closely watching the goings-on in Switzerland and are carefully reading Indian documents tracing the path they took to choosing the Rafale.

The Swiss air force documents, dated November 9, 2009, say that that the tests were undertaken in 2008 with the old generation of Gripen which has a less powerful engine and far less equipment than the Gripen-NG (new generation). But the second report takes into account the upgrades of 98 items (engine, radar etc.) and concludes that the Gripen “is still not able to compete with the two other candidates. It never reaches the 'Meet Minimum Expected Capabilities' in all type of missions.”

Both documents are signed by Air Force Commander Markus Gygax and are in English. Their authenticity is not in doubt. Ares has read them and you can too as PDFs .
http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

What particularly troubles the Swiss is that the mission the Gripen scored the worst on is the only one that the Swiss air force is certain it will have to undertake: protecting the sovereignty of its airspace. The Swedish aircraft only scored 5.33 out of 10 on this mission, well beneath the minimum 6 required by the air force. Gripen's low score overall on this mission was the result of three counter-performances: slow “quick reaction alert” on which it scored 4.7, insufficient flight performance (5.5) and nowhere near enough endurance (3.8). Six was the minimum requirement for all three tests. Eurofighter Typhoon scored 6.48 overall and the Rafale 6.98 on this air policing requirement.

Le Matin Dimanche reports that moral is low at the Swiss procurement agency Armasuisse and in the air force's evaluation teams who claim that Gripen got its score of 6 only on financial criteria. My conjecture is that not much arm-twisting was required by the newspaper to obtain these confidential air force reports.

In the first report the evaluation team writes that “among the three... candidates, the Rafale was the aircraft which demonstrated the best effectiveness and suitability in the accomplishment of all types of Air-to-Air missions, Recce and Strike missions. In addition, the Rafale made the best impression to the pilots.”

“The Eurofighter was able to fulfill all Mission Essential Tasks required by Air-to-Air missions. Hence in the Air-to-Air domain, there were several deficiencies that prevented a good execution of some mission essential tasks. The a/c performances (super cruise at Mach 1.4) were among the strong point of the Eurofighter. The sensors data fusion and the EW suite performances can be mentioned among the weak points...the capabilities of the Eurofighter to fulfill Recce and Strike missions were rated as unsatisfactory.”

“Based on test flight results, the Rafale is the candidate which fulfill all Swiss Air Force requirements and ended with the best score recommended as new fighter for the Swiss Air Force. The Eurofighter is the best alternative to the Rafale.”

 

[Triton]

"EADS Could Offer Swiss Alternative To Saab Gripen Jet: Paper"
By Reuters

August 27, 2012

Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_08_27_2012_p0-489736.xml

EADS is prepared to offer Switzerland 33 Eurofighter jets built in 2003 with a price tag of 3.2 billion Swiss francs ($3.28 billion) to replace its fleet of ageing Northrop F-5E/F Tiger fighters, a newspaper reported on Sunday.

The Swiss government opted last November to buy 22 JAS-39 Gripens from Saab at a cost of 3.1 billion francs, over rival bids for the Rafale built by France’s Dassault Aviation and EADS’ Anglo-German-Italian Eurofighter Typhoon.

But the purchase decision has proved controversial due to concerns about the Gripen’s yet-to-be-developed technologies, possible cost overruns, and concomitant budget cuts in areas such as education.

The Swiss parliament is expected to vote on the purchase in coming months, and the head of the pro-business Free Democrats (FDP) indicated in a newspaper report that his party was unlikely to support the purchase, which could scupper the Swiss side of the deal.

The paper Der Sonntag said the EADS planes came from the German air force and were in excellent condition.

“EADS is always able to make offers within Switzerland’s budget framework,” the newspaper quoted a spokesman for the aircraft maker as saying. ($1 = 0.9752 Swiss francs)

 

[Trident]

I can't see Switzerland taking them up on it. Used early production Typhoons would mean less scope for industrial offsets, lack of multi-role capability (which, unlike Austria, the Swiss want) unless expensively upgraded and probably higher operating costs - especially with the proposed larger fleet.

 

[Jemiba]

I can't see Switzerland taking them up on it.

As long, as it isn't used as an argument in the German-Swiss tax dispute ... ! :

 

[Arjen]

From Defensenews:
Sweden to order 60 Gripen fighter jets

STOCKHOLM — The Swedish Armed Forces will buy 60 JAS 39 Gripen fighter jets, at the top of a 40-60 range stated in an agreement last year, the Swedish government said Jan. 17.
“The first planes will be delivered in 2018. and the system is expected to be fully operational around 2027,” it said in a statement. “It’s an historic decision that will secure Swedish air combat capability for a long time ahead,” Defense Minister Karin Enstroem said in the statement.
[...]

Swedish Gripen E procurement is tied in with the Swiss order. Without the Swiss order, Gripen E development was likely to be postponed, if started at all.

 

[Pioneer]

I personally think that the Swiss have made the right choice!I like to think that the Swiss look and take their defence a lot more serious than most Western European country's. Fortunately the Swiss do not appear to be as influenced by sales pitches and political pressure (but I could be wrong ) And as stated by Harrier

make sense as it fits with their off-base strategy, shares the F404 engine with their Hornets

RegardsPioneer

 

[GTX]

I like to think that the Swiss look and take their defence a lot more serious than most Western European country's.

Unfortunately they also have apolitical system that allows for referendums to be called if they receive at least 100,000 signatures requesting. As such their history of acquiring new combat aircraft has been tortuous in recent years.

 

[cluttonfred]

Government accountability...and how is that a bad thing?

Unfortunately they also have apolitical system that allows for referendums to be called if they receive at least 100,000 signatures requesting. As such their history of acquiring new combat aircraft has been tortuous in recent years.

 

[GTX]

I am sure that there is no easy way to say this and I know I will be in for criticism: I am not against accountability, but when it becomes too easy for certain groups to cause disruption and thus wield far more influence then is necessarily justified, it allows for the government processes to be effectively hi-jacked. In the case of major acquisitions such as this, the Government/Defence Forces need to be able to make decisions and operate without the constant fear of short term political opinion derailing the process.

 

[Arjen]

The Swiss are extremely unlikely to let go of their referenda. They are also aware that a referendum should not be called frivolously. There was a referendum in June 2012 on a proposal to automatically force all international treaties put to a referendum. The proposal was rejected:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/17/uk-swiss-referendum-idUKBRE85G0BG20120617

Swiss voters reject more direct democracy
ZURICH | Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:13pm BST

Swiss voters looked to have rejected on Sunday a bid to force all international treaties to be put to popular referendum, which opponents argued could have hampered foreign policy and caused legal uncertainty.
The vote was called by the Action for an Independent and Neutral Switzerland (AUNS) that is regarded as close to the powerful right-wing Swiss People's Party (SVP), which is an ardent defender of direct democracy.
AUNS wanted voters to have more say over foreign policy, particularly sensitive issues like asylum, but the government and most political parties campaigned against the proposal, fearing it would mean international treaties could be held up.
Official projections showed the proposal was rejected by 75 percent of voters.

Referendums are central to Switzerland's political system of direct democracy and are held several times a year at national, regional and local level on a wide range of topics ranging from working hours to smoking bans.
Despite the vote, international treaties can still be put to a referendum if a group manages to gather 50,000 signatures, as AUNS is now trying to do to stop tax treaties Switzerland recently signed with Germany, Britain and Austria.
(Reporting by Emma Thomasson; Editing by Janet Lawrence)

I am sure that there is no easy way to say this and I know I will be in for criticism: I am not against accountability, but when it becomes too easy for certain groups to cause disruption and thus wield far more influence then is necessarily justified, it allows for the government processes to be effectively hi-jacked.

Switzerland is not the first country that jumps to *my* mind in this matter.

 

[GTX]

Switzerland is not the first country that jumps to *my* mind in this matter.

Agreed - I only raised it since the discussion was in regard to Switzerland.


Moving on:

Armaments Program 2012: 22 Saab Gripen E Combat Aircraft

(Source: Swiss Ministry of Defence, Civil Defence and Sports; issued Jan. 18, 2013)

(Issued in French only; unofficial translation by defense-aerospace.com)

As part of Armaments Program 2012, the Federal Council has asked Parliament to approve the acquisition of 22 Gripen E combat aircraft for a total cost of 3.126 billion francs.

These aircraft are to replace the air force’s obsolete F-5E Tiger fighters.

Along with the air force’s 33 F/A-18 Hornets, Gripen will help to ensure the monitoring and defence of Swiss airspace. A special fund (Gripen Fund) will be set up to finance this acquisition. Its creation is based on a federal law (Gripen Fund Act) which may be subject to an optional referendum.

Gripen meets the requirements set by the armed forces, and is significantly cheaper than its competitors. It has the best cost-benefit ratio and the lowest operating costs.

The Federal Council's decision to opt for this aircraft is based on the need to acquire a combat aircraft capable of carrying out its missions, without aiming for maximum performance. This will allow the other components of the armed forces to be financed as necessary.

Gripen Fund Act

The Law on the Gripen Fund will finance the acquisition of these aircraft. The Gripen fund is a special state fund as defined by art. 52 of the Act of 7 October 2005 on the finances of the Confederation (Finance Act, LFC, RS 611.0), and must be funded by allocations under the ceiling on military spending.

These allocations must be spread over ten years to balance the budgetary costs incurred by the armed forces and the federal budget. This will result in greater security in planning other weapons project, and will allow credit balances to be avoided to a large extent.

The Gripen procurement fund will be provided exclusively through the armed forces expenditures, and no additional investment will be required Confederation.

It is expected to make the larger payments at the conclusion of the contract - payments made in 2014 and 2016 - and during deliveries, the latter being provided between 2018 and 2021.

The Fund Act Gripen is the condition for the acquisition offer in the weapons program in 2012. This Act is subject to an optional referendum.

Impact on economic activity in Switzerland

Foreign suppliers undertake to offset 100% of the contract value to the Swiss industry. No obligation, against, from Swiss suppliers, government bodies and suppliers of small acquisitions.

The total volume of offset is currently estimated at around 2.5 billion francs, which corresponds to the economic activity of some 10,000 man-years. This will result in an increase in the know-how and added value to industrial high technological level.

Clearing operations shall be binding upon the Swedish industry to promote Swiss industry business relationships Swiss industry in a sustainable way and even beyond the term of the bonds. They will acquire new markets.

The acquisition of Gripen will also have a positive impact on the regions in which military airfields and military training bases are located.

Replacement of F-5 Tiger will support and maintain jobs in these regions, and even create new ones in the fields of industry, technology and services, as well as in the armed forces.

-ends-

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

The Swiss Parliament’s Defense Committee has voted to suspend the purchase of 22 Saab AB (SAABB) Gripen aircraft, asking the government for additional information.

“We are putting the Gripen deal on hold until some important questions are answered and the definitive agreement is available,” Beat Flach, a lawmaker for the Green Liberal party and member of the committee, said on his Twitter Inc. feed today. A spokeswoman for the Defense Ministry confirmed the outcome of the vote, declining to comment further.

Switzerland plans to spend about 3.1 billion Swiss francs ($3.3 billion) on the planes made by Saab, based in Linkoeping south of Stockholm, to replace aging Northrop Grumman Corp. (NOC) F-5 Tigers. Today’s vote is the second parliamentary setback for the acquisition, after the upper house last month failed to approve funding.

The purchase is controversial because it requires spending cuts in other areas, as a balanced budget is enshrined in Switzerland’s constitution. The Gripen deal may also face a national referendum.

European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. has written a letter to parliament offering to supply Switzerland with Eurofighters for 1.5 billion francs, Blick newspaper reported today, without saying where it got the information. That follows a similar overture by Dassault Aviation SA (AM) in January, according to Sonntagszeitung. Both companies lost to Saab in the initial bidding.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-09/swiss-parliament-committee-votes-to-suspend-gripen-jet-purchase.html

 

[Triton]

Saab promotion videos for Gripen NG.

http://youtu.be/c5AobIOZVRg

http://youtu.be/oKlQyPOiRuE

 

[Triton]

http://youtu.be/EIUmKts1Bng

http://youtu.be/qhs3k_JNbUE

 

[Arjen]

Swiss referendum on Gripen buy coming up:
http://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/nachrichten/schweiz/schweiz-sda/Gripen-Kauf-kommt-vors-Volk;art46447,312789

More than 80,000 signatures collected to date - referendum could be as early as May 18, 2014.
News item dated December 4, 2013.

 

[Triton]

Did Switzerland's policy of armed neutrality affect the purchase decision of the Gripen?

 

[archipeppe]

Did Switzerland's policy of armed neutrality affect the purchase decision of the Gripen?

In any case it not affected at all when Swiss decided to buy the A/F-18.....

 

[Avimimus]

True.

Did Switzerland's policy of armed neutrality affect the purchase decision of the Gripen?

It is kind of neat that Sweden is also militantly neutral... the neutrals are getting together...

 

[Pioneer]

Apart from what Bill Sweetman has remarked about the Mirage III vs. Draken decision.

Sorry Trident, but can you direct me to what Bill Sweetman remarked please?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Deino]

Just over there on Twitter as well as several Swedish news report ... and now also Reuters, the Gripen has won in Brazil !

Brasil will buy 36 Gripen NG.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article18049226.ab

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/18/brazil-jets-idUSL2N0JX17W20131218
PS:

http://airheadsfly.com/2013/12/18/affirm-brazil-buys-saab-gripen/

 

[Firefly 2]

Dassault is going to ache about this one. The French press was quite sure about the Brazilians going for the Rafale.