Russian post-war AA cruiser project.

[biscuitsAB]

Hi,
some months ago I came across a brief mention of a projected Russian AA cruiser that was to have been armed with 180mm semi auto AA guns. I was looking for something else at the time and failed to bookmark this. Does anyone have anything to offer on this?

 

[gollevainen]

Here is the MLK designs (post war light AA cruisers):

And here the project 84 from the now extint atrinaflot site:

 

[biscuitsAB]

Hi,
thank you very much for that, I now have a project number to search for.

 

[Bottleship]

MLK cruisers, big images:
130 mm:
4x2:

5x2:

6x2:

4x4:

152 mm:
4x2:

3x3:

(why not 6x4x130? )
AA guns in all projects - 6x4x45 mm and 4x4x25 mm.

 

[alexi]

Any details or information about 180mm autoloader?

 

[Tzoli]

You mean the 180mm CM-48 Pattern 1955 Gun intended for the Project 65bis and Project 84 cruisers in twin mountings?
I know nothing about it except the gun would had been 60 calibre long, but I do not even know the shell weight or muzzle velocity nor the loading mechanism.
Maybe there is a Russian book dedicated to these cruisers or to the Russian Guns?
Stalin's Ocean Going Fleet only covers the 1935-53 period and just barely mentions the Project 84 cruiser though a data table shows it's specs.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

How did the loading arrangements on the quad 100mm and 130mm mounts work? It seems to me like it would get very crowded in there

 

[Tzoli]

Those are 130mm quad and 37mm Quad mounts the latter being the 46-K gun.

But here is how the quad 100mm would look like:

from:

Тайны русской артиллерии | Александр Широкорад | страница 58 | LoveRead.ec - читать книги онлайн бесплатно

Тайны русской артиллерии | Александр Широкорад | страница 58 | LoveRead.ec - читать книги онлайн бесплатно

loveread.ec

 

[able]

 

[Tzoli]

From that article there were three 130mm Mounts under development in the early 1950's: BL-109, BL-110 probably twins and BL-132 a quad mount.
from google translate I think the SM-2-1 Pattern 1957 Gun was used for mounts developed from these early 1950's ones in the Tallinn, Kotlin and Kildin classes.
The B-110 later renamed as 2M-110 and had difficulties with firing.

The BL-132 quad was seems to be based on the BL-127 quad 100mm mounting.

The BL-127 quad 100mm mount would had used the same trunks/barbettes as the 100mm CM-5 and CM-5-1 Gun mounts and would drastically increased the firepower of the Sverdlov class cruisers

The 152mm Gun mounts seems to be the
Twin BL-112,
Single BL-113 for Monitors,
Twin BL-115 and
Triple BL-118 for cruisers
All of them being Dual-Purpose turrets

152-мм башенные установки для крейсеров и мониторов. Тайны русской артиллерии. Последний довод царей и комиссаров [с иллюстрациями]

tech.wikireading.ru

 

[awhalen61]

Here's some info on Project 84. Source is the Russian book "The Fleet that Khrushchev destroyed"

 

[alexi]

Oh god the wordings, is that google translation?

But still interesting and thanks you, but sadly still not much information about how those SM-48 autoloader looks like, i couldn't imagine Soviet get the autoloader technology from USN instead they use those BL mount studies (like 152mm DP on MLK cruisers) to work around.

 

[Tzoli]

I'm not sure we even seen photos or technical drawings of the 180mm and 152mm guns and turrets the Krasny Kavkaz, Kirov, Chapayev and Sverdlov crusiers used!

 

[Tzoli]

I've found this twitter showing the Soviet 130mm quad armed Atlanta!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1156495812521684992

 

[alexi]

Haha classic Yuro.

 

[Tzoli]

As for the autoloader of the 100mm quad, 130mm quad and 152mm twin and triple mounts I presume it would be similar to the 100mm CM-2-1 and CM-5-1 mounts used on the Chapayevs and Sverdlovs:

 

[Colonial-Marine]

I do not believe those 100mm mountings had automatic loading at least going off the info on Navweaps.

That makes me think the two-layer quad gun mountings would be quite crowded. On the positive side it would be smaller and lighter than a more conventional quad mounting in the same caliber.

 

[Tzoli]

There seems to be another book which describes these designs:

Ветка Советских линкоров

Сегодня в 02:10:57 пользователь ADM_MAKAPOB сказал: Конкурсы проектов в РИ по кораблям и вооружению проводились довольно часто На 18 орудие он был? Если нет, то это просто инициативные работы на будущее. Учитывая, что не осталось чертежей, всё было на уровне размышлений конструкторов, куда можно ...

forum.worldofwarships.ru

 

[Tzoli]

By the way do we have any concrete data on these designs? Like dimensions, displacement, armour, speed engine power?

 

[able]

I find this.

 

[Tzoli]

Will need translation but armour scheme seems to be copied over from the Chaapyevs and Sverdlovs of 100mm belt and 50mm deck if I seen the right numbers that is!

 

[awhalen61]

"the fleet that Kruschev destroyed" says all of the MLK projects had a 70mm belt.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

"the fleet that Kruschev destroyed" says all of the MLK projects had a 70mm belt.View attachment 636075

Interstingly the text says the MLK designs would have Gas-Turbine propulsion. Is that a mis-translation, as using Gas Turbine machinery in an early 1950s cruiser design is very forward thinking.

 

[Tzoli]

"the fleet that Kruschev destroyed" says all of the MLK projects had a 70mm belt.View attachment 636075

Any concrete data on the other 4 versions? As the table above only states the displacement and dimensions of the 4x4 and 6x2 130mm versions

 

[able]

here

 

[Tzoli]

ahh so either steam turbines with 3x30.000units or gas turbines with 3x 36.000 units am I correct? With 90.000 and 108.000shp respectively?

 

[Tzoli]

Using google translate I've translated part of the mountings from the sites I've linked:

The designs of the 130mm BL-109 and BL-110 twin mountings made in 1950–1951.
In the summer of 1953, the BL-110 system was renamed 2M-110.

In 1953, the Bolshevik plant manufactured a prototype BL-110 mount, and in the same year conducted factory tests of it.

In 1954, the 130-mm 2M-110 mounting's firing tests was done at Rzhevka.
The specifications of the firing on May 5, 1954 as follows:
Firing was carried out by a projectile weighing 33.14 kg.
The weight of the charge brand 130mm/58BP was 14.37 kg
The average recoil length was 533 mm.

Soon, work on the 2M-110 was discontinued.


The 130mm BL-110 mounting data as follows:

Maximum elevation: −8; +83 degrees
Rotating angle: ± 320 degrees
Rate of elevation, deg/s: 20 deg/s electically, 5 deg/s maunally
Rotating speed: 20 deg/s electically, 0,7 deg/s maunally
Gun recoil: 600mm

Turret dimensions:
Length: 5.990mm
Width: 4.680mm
Height of the gunhouse from deck: 3.195mm
Gun barrels height from deck: 1.945mm, 1.400mm from turret floor
Distance between axes: 1.000mm
Diameter of the rolling path: 3.600mm
Sweeping radius including barrels: 6.600mm
Sweeping radius of the turret: 3.520mm

Turret armour:
BL-110: * for cruisers, BL-110A: ** for capital ships
Frontal, and sides: 50mm *, 80mm **
Roof:70mm *, 70mm **
Swinging shield??? barbette?: 30mm *, 30mm **
Turret base: 20mm *, 20mm **

Weight Summary:
Retractable part??? of one gun: 6.1t *,6.1t **
Swinging part:- 9.5t *, 9.5t **
Fixed part of the turret: 6.2t *,6.2t **
Rotating part: 83.8t *, 92.8t **
The whole installation: 90.0t *, 99.0t **

Operational and other data:
Rate of fire of one barrel:
15 rounds per minute with electric loading,
8 rounds per minute with manual loading
Calulcated Crew requirment: 19 people
Sights: VB-1, MB-6

I suspect these were used to develop the 130mm SM-2-1 Pattern 1957 twin turrets used on the Project 41 Neustrashimy and Project 56 Kotlin classes

 

[Tzoli]

The same for the 100mm quadruple mount:


In 1949, OKB-172 completed the design of the 100mm four-gun turret mounting the BL-127 which was intended to replace the CM-5 mountings on the Sverdlov class cruisers.
The installation of these mountings were not accepted but it is worth discussing the original idea behind the mounting:
The 4 guns were located on two cradles, and two guns were placed one above the other on each common cradle. The gun barrels were the same as in the CM-5-1 mountings eg the 100mm/70 CM-5 Guns. This new quadruple mounting would had been installed on board new capital ships, cruisers and patrol ships (But not on destroyers???) For example on Project 68bis Cruisers (Sverdlov class) instead of the 6 twin SM-5-1 turrets, 6 quadruple BL-127 turrets were to be installed (without any significant design changes) effectively doubling the number of 100mm AA Guns. It was expected based on calculations in 1949, that the displacement would only increase by 1,5-2% of the standard displacement eg 200-270tons


The 100mm BL-127 mounting data as follows:

Maximum elevation: −5; +85 degrees
Rotating angle: ± 320 degrees
Rate of elevation, deg/s: 20 deg/s
Rotating speed: 30 deg/s

Turret dimensions:
Length: 6.040mm
Width: 4.560mm
Height of the gunhouse from deck (Without Radar): 3.270mm
Gun barrels (Lower) height from deck: 1.480mm
Barbette hieght?: 2080mm
Diameter of the rolling path?: 3950mm
Distance between axes: 1.600mm
Armor radius???: 3.640mm

Weight Summary:
The whole installation: 66.0tons with bulletproof armour (10-20mm?? )

Operational and other data:
Rate of fire of one barrel:
16-18 rounds per minute
Calculated Crew requirement: 19 people (14 in the turret)
The ammunition and ballistics of the BL-127 guns equals with that of guns of SM-5.

 

[alexi]

The 4 guns were located on two cradles, and two guns were placed one above the other on each common cradle.

Huh, interesting layout but i really want to know they're looks like, maybe you could do some illustrations something?

 

[Tzoli]

I'm already working on it, but by the description it would be an enlarged quad 100mm mount

 

[awhalen61]

The 4 guns were located on two cradles, and two guns were placed one above the other on each common cradle.

Huh, interesting layout but i really want to know they're looks like, maybe you could do some illustrations something?

Drawing from "The Fleet that Khrushchev Destroyed"

 

[able]

I have found some pics too make the 4*4-130 model

 

[Tzoli]

I've based my 130mm quad on the MKL drawing

 

[Tzoli]

Okay here they are, my representation of these turrets with comparison of earlier ones:

100mm/56 B-34 Pattern 1940 guns in twin M3-14 / M3-16 turrets intended for the Kronshtadt and Sovietsky Soyuz classes:


100mm/70 CM-5 guns in twin CM-5-1 turret used for the Chapayev and Sverdlov classes:


Same gun in quadruple BL-127 turret:


130mm/50 B-13 Pattern 1936 guns in twin B-2LM turret used for many destroyers:


130mm/58 SM-2-1 Pattern 1957 guns in twin SM-2-1 turret used on Tallinn, Kotlin and Kotlin Mod classes:


Same gun in quad BL-132 turret intended for the MKL designs:


152mm/57 B-38 Pattern 1938 guns in twin MK-17 turrets intended for the Kronshtadt class:


Same gun in triple MK-5 turrets used on the Chapayev and Sverdlov classes:


Same gun in Dual-Purpose twin BL-115 turrets intended for the MKL designs:


Same gun in Dual-Purpose triple BL-118 turrets intended for the MKL designs:




For the last two I've used ideas from the British twin DP 6" and the USN's twin 6" and triple 8" DP turrets as these being larger then their contemporary SP turrets

 

[Grey Havoc]

Guns, guns, guns!

 

[able]

МЛК_16х130

 

[Lacks]

View attachment 635530

What ship is this a model of?

 

[awhalen61]

View attachment 635530

What ship is this a model of?

Looks like the bow of Pr. 66-IV, very similar to Pr. 66's main design except the 130mm guns were 3x4 instead of 4x2

 

[JohnR]

I'm highly intrigued by the four barreled turrets, what rate of fire was expected to be achieved, and how heavy was the mount?

 

[Tzoli]

Check above