Russia sticks with the MIG-1.44?

[griml0ck122]

Pretty simple, what if the Russians don't flip flop around with their 5th gen program and decide to keep developing the Mig 1.44?
Would they have a 5th gen(ish) aircraft earlier? what would it's export potential be? how effective would it be?

my 2 cents are
It would be operational earlier that su-57, but the numbers would remain low. it might get some exports to the usual suspects, and china (who are probably going to rip one apart for engineering purposes). In terms of effectivness... probably on par with the su-57, with a slight disadvantage in stealth and versatility. It's no f-22 or j-20, but I think the mig could do the air superiority job fine against typhoons and f-15s, and put up a decent showing against US fifth gens.

 

[Avimimus]

I wonder what the original service date would have been if the Cold War had continued?

 

[Empire]

To me the 1-44/42 would have been a souped up euro-fighter like design. If they had gone ahead with the project. Here is my take on the 1-42 design. Give the air intake a stealthy smiley face modification like a euro-fighter, RAM for the leading edges of the wings, vertical stabilizers, canards, and the intake edges plus interior. Internal weapons carriage. Stealthy radome design cant the dish. They probably could have got the front RCS down to a little better than the euro-fighter just because of the internal weapons bay.
Thanks to MAKs it would look like this.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

If the AL-41F variable cycle engines worked well, it would likely have been a supreme supercruiser, with great close-in agility, and a reduced RCS (say 0.1 sq m). Prototype did lack a weapons bay however.

 

[Archibald]

How does the Su-47 compared to it ?

 

[StraGen410]

How does the Su-47 compared to it ?

Su-47 has far more agility and maneuverability than MiG-1.44 because of its forward swept wings.

 

[F-2]

I’ve been very curious on how the Mig 1.44 would have shaped up. It’s important to remember that the Mig 1.44 was like the YF-22/YF-23 in that it was more a proof of concept then a real combat aircraft. The hard part of development had yet to begin and with some fourth gen aircraft already in production and a general sense that a future combat aircraft would be more like the F-22 then say a delta canard type aircraft it makes sense it was canceled. Still I often wondered how the Mig 1.44 would have shaped up to be and compared to its contemporaries. Khai in the Ukraine did the subscale flight testing, I keep threatening to request documentation from them someday. It would be fun to compare it to the flankers and eurocanards.

 

[helmutkohl]

How does the Su-47 compared to it ?

Su-47 has far more agility and maneuverability than MiG-1.44 because of its forward swept wings.

I actually wonder if any of these FSW fighters, the Su-47, X-29 etc, would have made viable production combat aircraft

 

[F-2]

How does the Su-47 compared to it ?

Su-47 has far more agility and maneuverability than MiG-1.44 because of its forward swept wings.

I actually wonder if any of these FSW fighters, the Su-47, X-29 etc, would have made viable production combat aircraft

I always thought the Su-47 with its working internal weapons bay, would have been a good combat aircraft especially in the export market.

 

[paralay]

The MiG 1.42 is the best fighter-interceptor of the nineties. In the Soviet Air Force, it was supposed to replace the Su-27 and MiG-31 at the same time

 

[isayyo2]

As Paralay, Paul, and F-2 have said the 1.44 had veryyyy different requirements than the ATF program. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the MFI program was to be an extension of the PVO umbrella; where as the ATF had all-aspect stealth to penetrate the Soviet defenses.
1. Super-cruise for threat reaction
2. Low frontal RCS
3. High fuel fraction/long loiter capability
4. Large weapons reserves

 

[paralay]

The F-22 was supposed to surpass the Su-27 and MiG-29
MFI should be better than Su-27, MiG-31 and ATF
That's the difference. Therefore, the MFI turned out to be larger than the Raptor

 

[KimIrSen]

I think comparing the MiG 1.44 to eurocanards misses themark, considering that the eurocanards were much smaller and shorter legged than the MFI fighter,who was massive even by russian standards. It would have been a pure fighter/interceptor. I doubt the russians would have exported it in the short term like they did with the Su 27 if they had the money to pursue MFI, since the soviets didn't export their top of the line designs like the Mig 31.

 

[F-2]

I think comparing the MiG 1.44 to eurocanards misses themark, considering that the eurocanards were much smaller and shorter legged than the MFI fighter,who was massive even by russian standards. It would have been a pure fighter/interceptor. I doubt the russians would have exported it in the short term like they did with the Su 27 if they had the money to pursue MFI, since the soviets didn't export their top of the line designs like the Mig 31.

I believe mfi was very much about producing a Multirole aircraft. Mfi is something like multi functional fighter in English. That said I feel like the Eurofighter it would be a multi role but air to air would be its primary job.

 

[K00]

I believe mfi was very much about producing a Multirole aircraft. Mfi is something like multi functional fighter in English. That said I feel like the Eurofighter it would be a multi role but air to air would be its primary job.

I think the MFI was meant to be a pure air superiority platform at first, the LFI would then be its light multirole brother.

After funding for the LFI was withdrawn however, the MFI took a more multirole approach as well.

 

[paralay]

MiG Project 1.42 - Buy Royalty Free 3D model by Tim Samedov (@citizensnip)

The Mikoyan Project 1.44/1.42 Flatpack developed by the Mikoyan design bureau. It was the Soviet Union’s answer to the U.S.’s Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF), incorporating many fifth-generation jet fighter aspects such as advanced avionics, stealth technology, supermaneuverability, and...

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[DWG]

The MiG 1.44 was first and foremost to be an air-defence platform for PVO; that puts the design drivers at a different point from the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen (and F-22). PVO had a tough job because of the sheer size of the Soviet Union's borders, and that means a longer-ranged* aircraft with a heavier fuel-fraction, limiting agility (and more so if it has to grow from the 1.42 to squeeze in an internal weapons bay). It would undoubtedly be more agile than the MiG-31, but with the requirements for long range, and stealth, and a heavy missile load, it may not have been the last word in agility. It may not even have been in the top 5, but as an interceptor, if you're relying on instantaneous agility, you're doing it wrong.

* Longer-range is not a positive in fighter design, range is rather a limiting factor because it forces size and weight growth. Range should be as much as needed for the mission and no more.

 

[Empire]

Thanks to MAKs we see how they would have cleaned up the fuselage RCS of the operational Mig-42. I think they would have kept the euro fighter style air intake ( not the side intakes of this notional aircraft carrier fighter pictured below) maybe copying the RCS reduction as seen on the typhoon. This style intake probably would have lead to a smaller internal weapons bay.

 

[lancer21]

Su-57 is an absolutely gorgeous machine but MFI, the 1.42 especially has brutish beauty to it and it's a pity it hasn't been built. Perhaps if the financial situation in Russia or at least for MiG would have been better in the nineties MFI could have been built as a sort of stop gap until the fully 5th gen T-50, in terms of production displacing most or all the OTL Su-35 and maybe part of the Su-30SM run. Would the MFI offer clearly superior performance to Su-35/Su-30SM?

So if the situation is a bit better let's say the 1.44 demonstrator flies in 1995, then the 1.42 series configuration prototypes in about 2000, and first series production machines about 2008/2010, and they end up building about 100 over the next decade.

One of the most important things is the AL-41F engine, which i understand weighs 1850kg and develops 17,500-18,000kgf but had serious issues. If Saturn manages to debug it and it has an acceptable TBO, THEN the improved version could power the fully 5th gen T-50 from the start, maybe with those fancy flat nozzles too, say they manage to reduce the weight to 1750kg and a good TBO for the same 18,000kgf (which seems to be the aim for the OTL Izd.30) so the T-50 won't be underpowered and be more LO.

So then in this ATL, Salyut will perhaps put their uprated AL-31FM1 and perhaps FM2 in the Su-30SM (it needs more power anyway!) and a slightly upgraded Su-27M2 (since Sukhoi won't be developing the Su-35, or it it does it will be strictly a private venture) with a Bars-M radar, sort of a single seat Su-30SM if you like.

 

[Cjc]

Mig 1.42 as the su-27 replacement, su-47 as the mig-29 replacement in a cold war continues sort of timeline?

 

[paralay]

,

 

[Cjc]

1.42 is a replacement for the Su-27 and MiG-31. Su-47 replaces Su-33

Well maybe that as well, I'm not convinced it would have done very well on a carrier.

 

[paralay]

,

 

[igor-mich]

1.42 is a replacement for the Su-27 and MiG-31. Su-47 replaces Su-33

What's a trifle, the MiG-9 will replace the Su-27 and MiG-31, and the Su-9 1946 will replace the Su-33. Which 1.42 and Su-47 are a long time ago.

 

[Cjc]

Thanks to MAKs we see how they would have cleaned up the fuselage RCS of the operational Mig-42. I think they would have kept the euro fighter style air intake ( not the side intakes of this notional aircraft carrier fighter pictured below) maybe copying the RCS reduction as seen on the typhoon. This style intake probably would have lead to a smaller internal weapons bay.

I wonder how big those bays are supposed to be? They look kind like the two su-57 bays but side by side, but this plane was supposed to be quite a bit bigger then the su-57 so maby the bays were bigger as well.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I actually wonder if any of these FSW fighters, the Su-47, X-29 etc, would have made viable production combat aircraft

X-29 would not have, it's basically an F-20 with new wings.

Wings that would have struggled with any pylons on them, so at best you're getting a pair of AMRAAMs. And to take advantage of the maneuverability you'd want a pair of AIM-9Ls or Xs. But the R73 is still going to eat the plane alive in a dogfight.

Su-47 maybe. It certainly flies very well in the Ace Combat games, but those are not an accurate sim by any stretch of the imagination.

Mig 1.42 as the su-27 replacement, su-47 as the mig-29 replacement in a cold war continues sort of timeline?

Su47 is way too big to fly off a carrier.

 

[paralay]

Su47 is way too big to fly off a carrier.

A big ship needs a big plane

 

[Scott Kenny]

A big ship needs a big plane

Okay, yes, if the Soviet Navy had built a full size carrier it might physically fit.

But I doubt that you could safely make forward-swept wings that fold. There's some aeroelastic effects that you need to deal with on FSW, like how the X29 converted the pitch-increasing twisting effect into a wing bending effect, but that required a single piece wing on the X29. While I don't think that the Su47 used a single piece wing, the wings would have to fold at the root instead of midspan.

 

[F-2]

Okay, yes, if the Soviet Navy had built a full size carrier it might physically fit.

But I doubt that you could safely make forward-swept wings that fold. There's some aeroelastic effects that you need to deal with on FSW, like how the X29 converted the pitch-increasing twisting effect into a wing bending effect, but that required a single piece wing on the X29. While I don't think that the Su47 used a single piece wing, the wings would have to fold at the root instead of midspan.

They do fold. It was a pretty novel solution for the Ulyanovsk.