Rhodesian Hawker Hunter FGA.9

F.L.

F.L.

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This photo of a Rhodesian Hunter FGA.9 with SAAF markings leaves me perplexed !
Rhodesian Hunter FGA.9 with AIM-9B and SAAF marking.jpg
In what year is that ?
Did the South Africans produce AIM-9s ?
Did they sell any to the Rhodesians ?
I read that the V3 Kukris had also been tested on the Hunter FGA.9. Is this true ?

The South African Air Force

Privately run, unofficial website on the South African Air Force. It is maintained by myself during my (limited) spare time so please read the Disclaimer. I hope you enjoy the experience and visit again soon. All suggestions are welcome - Dean Wingrin
www.saairforce.co.za
 
During the 1970s fighting in Rhodesia, South Africa provided plenty of military support to Rhodesia. They just did not brag about it. SAAF Alouette III helicopters were frequently “re-badged” to haul Rhodesian Fire-Force soldiers around the battlefield. The helicopters usually went with SAAF pilots as well.

Similar re-badging was done between the Cambodian Air Force and Royal Thai Air Force T-28s bombing the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Loas may have been involved too.
 
Back in the late 80s I worked with a bloke from that neck of the woods. Claimed he had been in the Rhodesian armed forces. He said that the Rhodesians had access to a number of Mirage IIIs, kept in South Africa, for some eventuality. I assumed it was one of his more outrageous war stories i.e. bollocks. He was very entertaining on nightshift!

Chris
 
CJGibson said:
He said that the Rhodesians had access to a number of Mirage IIIs, kept in South Africa, for some eventuality.
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That's very interesting, thank you very much !
In fact it said that some Rhodesian pilots had been converted to Mirage IIIs, and that in case of need, the latter would have been sent to Rhodesia, but remained in South Africa ?
It doesn't seem impossible to me, as Pumas have often been loaned to the Rhodesians for operations.
 
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F.L. said:
This photo of a Rhodesian Hunter FGA.9 with SAAF markings leaves me perplexed !

In what year is that ?
Did the South Africans produce AIM-9s ?
Did they sell any to the Rhodesians
Click to expand...


Rhodesian Hunters were armed with Sidewinders on some external missions from at least mid 1978. Origin of the weapons wasn't disclosed but seems evident.
 
Kiltonge said:
Rhodesian Hunters were armed with Sidewinders on some external missions from at least mid 1978. Origin of the weapons wasn't disclosed but seems evident.
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According to a Key Aero article by Andrew Thomas, during Operation "Gatling" in 1978, two Hunters carried air-to-air missiles.
www.key.aero

The Hawker Hunter and Rhodesia’s ‘Bush War’

As Rhodesia fought a bloody conflict against cross-border insurgents, the Hawker Hunters of its air force’s 1 Squadron operated effectively despite an arms supply embargo
www.key.aero www.key.aero
 
Only one RhAF Hunter was ever equipped to carry Sidewinders confirmed to me by an RhAF Hunter pilot who flew on that very mission and served on RhAF 1 Sqn. Fiction/mistakes became fact after repeat in books and stories that more were equipped as such.

The SAAF marked Hunter was a practical joke by SAAF ground crew when it visited and was only done on one side of the aircraft.

Rhodesians were training, flying and working on SAAF Mirage IIIs correct. They were to be transferred to the RhAF after replacement by the Mirage F1. Unfortunately the arms embargo prevented South Africa from locally manufacturing the remaining aircraft from the planned 100 after the initial 48 F1 deliveries. The escalating war in Northen Namibia on top of the embargo resulted in the transfer agreement with Rhodesia to fall through.
 
BLACK_MAMBA said:
Only one RhAF Hunter was ever equipped to carry Sidewinders confirmed to me by an RhAF Hunter pilot who flew on that very mission and served on RhAF 1 Sqn.
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Do you know what year it was ?
And where these photos were taken, in Rhodesia or South Africa ?
 
F.L. said:
Do you know what year it was ?
And where these photos were taken, in Rhodesia or South Africa ?
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Missile intergration happened in August 1979 in South Africa. I assume that is when the picture was taken.

It was carried operationally once under what I believe was Op Vanity. Gatling was the year prior. With peace talks on the horizon SA withdrew all support for the project. They could carry AIM-9B or V3A, but only had access to the former.

I attach a newspaper piece and a pic of the aircraft taking off on an operation.
 

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I love this artwork, but it's imprecise, because it's not AIM-9B.
What's more, I believe that by the end of the 70s, the Rhodesian Hunters were no longer wearing this camo.
Rhodesian Hunter FGA.9 (firing AIM-9 (3d).jpg
 
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F.L. said:
I love this artwork, but it's imprecise, because it's not AIM-9B.
What's more, I believe that by the end of the 70s, the Rhodesian Hunters were no longer wearing this camo.
View attachment 714205
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What is more, the RhAF missile rail added an extra pylon between the outer two and did not use an existing one like shown here.
 
F.L. said:
I've heard of a V1, which missile does that correspond to ?
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That I know of the V1 was a direct (reverse engineered) copy of the AIM-9B - The V2 was also a direct copy, but this time with our own (South African) developed laser proxmitry fuze in place of the US (radar?) fuze.

There was a lot of South African support to Rhodesia on many levels that was kept 'hush-hush' - I don't know if any Rhodesian pilots were trained on the Pumas - quite likely later when they migrated to the SAAF. Our police seconded a good couple of units in the early days to help patrol and fight in Rhodesia, later quite a few SA airborne troops were seconded to fight there, and a very close working and fighting together relationship was developed between our SF (Recces) and the Rhodesian SAS and Selous Scouts, so much so that a 'D' Sqdn Rhd SAS was formed just to house the Recces seconded to them (apart from the earlier volunteers that still staffed 'C' Sqdn). The Selous Scouts had many Recces seconded to them too (again, aside from early volunteers, like Schullie Schullenburg).

Both Rhodesian and SAAF pilots flew the Allo's and there would have been some 'assistance' with SAAF Canberras. However I suspect the the really handy help was all the supplies of food, ammunition, logistics, spare parts, vehicles, fuel, Locomotives/rail cars, electricity etc... And of course high level intelligence information, and tacit political backing...
 
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BLACK_MAMBA said:
Missile intergration happened in August 1979 in South Africa. I assume that is when the picture was taken.

It was carried operationally once under what I believe was Op Vanity. Gatling was the year prior. With peace talks on the horizon SA withdrew all support for the project. They could carry AIM-9B or V3A, but only had access to the former.
Click to expand...

They were definitely carried on GATLING in Oct 1978. Per Petter-Bowyer two Hunters were so loaded on that op.
 
Kiltonge said:
They were definitely carried on GATLING in Oct 1978. Per Petter-Bowyer two Hunters were so loaded on that op.
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I have spoken to a RhAF pilot and posed that question to him. The history books mention two cases including Gatling as where Hunter(s) participated with missiles. His simple response was he was one of the two pilots flying top cover for Gatling, and they did not have Sidewinders fitted... He did not fly on the second mission where they were fitted, but shared a picture of the take-off I posted above.

History books even from senior figures are not the beginning and end. I have noticed the same in SAAF literature where even informed figures like Dick Lord wrote one thing but between personal testimony and available dated photos his statement was proven incorrect. I believe the same happened here. Don't rely on a single source when conducting research. In this case best info I have is integration in South Africa was only done in 1979 - then how were they carried operationally in 1978?
 
F.L. said:
This photo of a Rhodesian Hunter FGA.9 with SAAF markings leaves me perplexed !
View attachment 714150
In what year is that ?
Did the South Africans produce AIM-9s ?
Did they sell any to the Rhodesians ?
I read that the V3 Kukris had also been tested on the Hunter FGA.9. Is this true ?

The South African Air Force

Privately run, unofficial website on the South African Air Force. It is maintained by myself during my (limited) spare time so please read the Disclaimer. I hope you enjoy the experience and visit again soon. All suggestions are welcome - Dean Wingrin
www.saairforce.co.za
Click to expand...
That photograph was taken in 1979 at the TFDC facility in Waterkloof Air Force Base, Pretoria. I was present and I have the original photo. The Hunter was flown to Waterkloof by Squadron Leader Rick Culpin. The SAAF Test Pilot who flew the Hunter for the V-2 (AIM-9B) missile trials was Major Duncan Cooke. The SAAF markings were placed on the aircraft as a matter of practicality.
 
cooke said:
That photograph was taken in 1979 at the TFDC facility in Waterkloof Air Force Base, Pretoria. I was present and I have the original photo. The Hunter was flown to Waterkloof by Squadron Leader Rick Culpin. The SAAF Test Pilot who flew the Hunter for the V-2 (AIM-9B) missile trials was Major Duncan Cooke. The SAAF markings were placed on the aircraft as a matter of practicality.
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I have heard both versions. One version says its a matter of practicality in "hiding in plain sight" and the other says its a practical joke. The Castle is only applied on the port side, not the starboard side which is in aid of the latter account.

Rhodesian Hunters are very distinct in shape and colours from SAAF Mirages at the time. The fact that they already visited South Africa a few times before 1979 with Hunters on long range recce exercises makes it difficult to believe that any keen observer would be fooled by SAAF markings on a Hunter - especially if only on the one side. Thus the practical joke does make sense to me.

Thanks for adding names to some of the people involved.
 
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cooke said:
That photograph was taken in 1979 at the TFDC facility in Waterkloof Air Force Base, Pretoria. I was present and I have the original photo. The Hunter was flown to Waterkloof by Squadron Leader Rick Culpin. The SAAF Test Pilot who flew the Hunter for the V-2 (AIM-9B) missile trials was Major Duncan Cooke. The SAAF markings were placed on the aircraft as a matter of practicality.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much !!!
 

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