Real or fake? German WWII jet pack

[Hammer Birchgrove]

http://gizmodo.com/5524604/real-goddamn-flying-nazi-soldiers-with-jet-packs
??? Hurm.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I've seen vague reports of such things over the years, with variations on whether they were pulsejets, pulsejets & rockets, or all-rockets. I suspect there's some truth to the story that the Germans proposed such things, but there's essentially no chance in hell that the idea would've worked worth a damn.

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

The article just shows somone needs to turn ROCKETEER back in to NetFlix, stat.

 

[edwest4]

It's entirely possible. There is a photo on page 50 of Secret Gadgets and Strange Gizmos by Bill Yenne that shows a jet vest. It appears to be an import though its invention is credited to the Redstone Arsenal. It has just the right operational characteristics to jump barriers like barbed wire.


Ed

 

[Orionblamblam]

It has just the right operational characteristics to jump barriers like barbed wire.

Jumping is easy. It's the landing that's a bitch. A single 500-pound-thrust solid rocket might do admirable work at lifting a wide range of soliders into the sky, everything from the 150-pound lightweight to the 300-pound gunner, but the landings are going to be wholly different events. There's a reason why so few people ever flew the Bell (and similar) rocket belts... because they're fricken *hard* to fly. And it was vastly more controllable than any WWII-era German "rocket belt" concept I've ever heard of.

Again, there may well have been ideas for such things during wartime... but that's just proof that the Gremans dreamed up a lot of crazy unworkable nonsense, quite a lot of it porbably just to keep themselves looking clever and useful so they wouldn't get shipped to the Eastern Front.

 

[Michel Van]

the dimly B/w Foto in Article is a Photoshop picture of Model kit for Nazi Jetpack !
called HIMMELSTÜRMER

Sadly i don't know who build the kit

to real thing
after the WW2 allot story were tell about Nazi super weapon

one was that Nazi build a rocketbelt for jumps over river or other obstacles
it consist out to two rockets engine, one on back the second attached with fueltanks on chest
with hand valves control flow rate of fuel and so thrust

the other were a Jetpack called "Himmelstürmer" (Heaven stormer) with singel Schmidt pulseengine
but this had to be use by Wehrmacht engineer units only for cross minefields, barbed wire obstacles, and bridgeless waters.
NEVER during this project was this intended for infantry use.

So those Belts bekame a myth like Nazi Flying Saucer

 

[Nik]

Dear me !! That makes the ME 163 look *safe* !!

 

[Orionblamblam]

Dear me !! That makes the ME 163 look *safe* !!

The Me 163 had the advantage of a means of landing, in the form of wings and a skid. The "himmelsturmer" on the other hand would have to rely upon vertical thrust from it's pulsejet(s). It also relied upon vertical thrust from its pulsejet for launch, obviously. For the liftoff portion of the mission, the pulsejets inlet would be roughly forward... while at landing, the pulsejet would neccessarily be flying *backwards.* Anybody have any data on how well a pulsejet - which doesn't operate that well at low speed in the best of circumstances - operates while flying backwards?

 

[Jemiba]

The story is absolutely true, or do you think the Nazis in their antarctic
stronghold WALK through the icy wilderness ? ;D

 

[mz]

Dear me !! That makes the ME 163 look *safe* !!

The Me 163 had the advantage of a means of landing, in the form of wings and a skid. The "himmelsturmer" on the other hand would have to rely upon vertical thrust from it's pulsejet(s). It also relied upon vertical thrust from its pulsejet for launch, obviously. For the liftoff portion of the mission, the pulsejets inlet would be roughly forward... while at landing, the pulsejet would neccessarily be flying *backwards.* Anybody have any data on how well a pulsejet - which doesn't operate that well at low speed in the best of circumstances - operates while flying backwards?

Well, isn't a Lockwood pulse jet U-shaped, meaning the inlet is facing backwards, yet it works fine.
They have quite low thrust to weight though.

 

[fightingirish]

The story is absolutely true, or do you think the Nazis in their antarctic
stronghold WALK through the icy wilderness ? ;D

And later on the dark side of the moon...

 

[Orionblamblam]

Well, isn't a Lockwood pulse jet U-shaped, meaning the inlet is facing backwards, yet it works fine.
They have quite low thrust to weight though.

It was also develoepd in the 1960's, just a little late for the Germans to use.

Having some difficulty in finding hard numbers on performance for pulsejets like these, but T/W appear to be pretty dreadful. And for a manned "jet pack," the pilot would need to be able to throttle the thing up and down with some level of precision and reliability.

Additionally, the ability to vector thrust would be vital, and it's not clear how, or even if, this would be possible with a design like this. It would be pretty easy to design a system that could throw a man safely... but landing him after dropping him from a height of, say, 20 feet would seem to be a non-trivial challenge.

 

[mz]

Well, isn't a Lockwood pulse jet U-shaped, meaning the inlet is facing backwards, yet it works fine.
They have quite low thrust to weight though.

It was also develoepd in the 1960's, just a little late for the Germans to use.

Having some difficulty in finding hard numbers on performance for pulsejets like these, but T/W appear to be pretty dreadful. And for a manned "jet pack," the pilot would need to be able to throttle the thing up and down with some level of precision and reliability.

Additionally, the ability to vector thrust would be vital, and it's not clear how, or even if, this would be possible with a design like this. It would be pretty easy to design a system that could throw a man safely... but landing him after dropping him from a height of, say, 20 feet would seem to be a non-trivial challenge.

Yeah, a pure rocket with storable propellants is the best candidate for something like this, considering the time frame and technology basis. Red fuming nitric acid and vinyl isobutyl ether like in Wasserfall.

 

[Nik]

By altering the internal shape and composition, could a solid rocket --Or cluster-- produce a 'normal distribution-shaped' thrust curve ? A couple of different packs for different weight groups and/or jockey-style ballast / extra equipment to balance...

Don't try this at home, folks !!

IIRC, the infamous 'James Bond' jet-pack runs on 'HiTest' peroxide, trading efficiency for minimal mechanics. Very, very few folk can master it, even with a 'flying rig' for safety...

FWIW, they'd probably do better with a 'skyhook' miniature helicopter / jump gyro, perhaps tip-driven. At least that would probably descend survivably when thrust runs out at altitude...

 

[Orionblamblam]

By altering the internal shape and composition, could a solid rocket --Or cluster-- produce a 'normal distribution-shaped' thrust curve ?

Yes. Tailoring thrust curves is done all the time in solid rocket design. However, WWII-era solid rockets were not spectacularly precise. In addition to variabilities introduced in the manufacture of the rocket (diethylene glycol dinitrate mixed with nitrocellulose to form a double-base propellant appear to be the standard WWII-era German solid rocket mix), burn rate is modified by the bulk temperature of the propellant itself... it'll burn hotter if the rocket has been left in the sun on a hot day than if it has been in a Moscow blizzard.

A couple of different packs for different weight groups and/or jockey-style ballast / extra equipment to balance...

Additionally, the thrust vector needs to point through the center of mass of the whole "vehicle," or otherwise it'll simply tumble. And for a solid rocket to precisely launch *and* land someone, it will need to follow a pretty precise trajectory, without being adjusted by changes in mass, wind shear or thrust angle. Good luck with that.

While a case can probably be made that WWII-era German science could have produced a jet/rocket "jump pack" that would in principle work... the fact that in sixty-plus years since then nobody has succeeded in even coming close to somethign that is real-world-practical is a good arguement against any German programs seeing much success.

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

The article just shows somone needs to turn ROCKETEER back in to NetFlix, stat.

The comic books were awesome too.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Two additional bits of info about the "Himmelsturmer:"
1) There doesn't seem to be much of anything out there older than Bob Arndt's tale of the Himmelsturmer. Which would mean chances are good there's not much out there older than when he dreamed this up.

------------------------

2) A Google Image Search for Himmelsturmer turns up a lot of stuff that's not... right. Everybody knows, a GIS on even the safest of all possible topics will eventually produce porn. Himmelsturmer GIS turns up a whole lot of *gay* male porn.

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

I agree with the cats.

I once googled "The Punisher", naively thinking I would get images of the comic book anti-hero... that wasn't the only thing I got to see. :-[

 

[Lauge]

I once googled "The Punisher", naively thinking I would get images of the comic book anti-hero... that wasn't the only thing I got to see. :-[

"Honestly, I swear, I was looking for a comic book character......". Riiiiiiiight. Like we haven't heard THAT one a gazillion times before......

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

 

[robunos]

Try a look at 'Unknown' No. 4..........................................


cheers,
Robin.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Try a look at 'Unknown' No. 4

I'd forgotten about that. A few things, plusses and minuses:
Plus: The illustration is openly and honestly described as being completely speculative
Neutral: Nowhere does it use the name "Himmelsturmer"
Minus: Two of the sources... well, they piss me off. One is Rudolf Lusar, who promoted the whole "Nazi Flying Saucer" myth in the 1950's, and the other is substantially worse... "Christof Freidrich." AKA Ernst Zundel, a neo-Nazi who took Lusars "Nazi flying saucer" myth and *really* ran with it in the newage-filled days of the 1970's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel

This is nothing against Justo. Lots of people got suckered into this. Hell, back when I was in junior high (for you younguns, there really was an era before The Intarweb Tubes), I was just starting to get interested in the whole "secret projects" gig. And in the mid/late 1980's, "secret projects" was pretty much synonymous with "German secret projects," because there wasn't anything else out there. So when I heard about Samisdat Publishings "German Secret Weapons" book, I wrote to the publisher in Canada and asked if it was still available for purchase. A few months later a letter showed up in the mail from them... a letter than had been opened and taped back shut, and when read was packed with anti-semetic rants about how The Jews were keeping them from publishing.

Oy.

A little bit of pre-Google research showed me just who "Samisdat" were, and I'm pretty sure that that was the very first time that the FBI took notice of lil' ol' me.

Gah.

I hate Canada Nazis.

 

[robunos]

I wasn't implying that the 'Unknown' version was the real deal, however, from a technical point of view, it seems a lot more practical than using a pulse-jet, of all things.
Having said that, a LOX/gasoline rocket exhaust would be a highly effective soldier roaster, and I can't really see manual control being fast, or precise enough, to work.


cheers,
Robin.

 

[Orionblamblam]

a LOX/gasoline rocket exhaust would be a highly effective soldier roaster,

Indeed. Note that in the Popular Conception Of A Rocket Pack, the rocketeer is going to have his ass and the back of his thighs, calves and ankles burned off. Reality is so much less visually appealing.

 

[edwest4]

I have the book by Rudolf Lusar. The main problem with thinking like a denialist is this: Would my country look better to history if I just made stuff up? Honestly. And a week after the book goes on sale in Germany, the author, and publisher, get the following from passers-by: "You idiot! We lost the war and now you publish these... these fantasies! Have you no sense of national pride!? Dumbkopf!"

But no - let's just focus on Canadian Nazis. Yeah, that always encourages further research.

How about Die realitaet der Flugscheiben by J. Andreas Epp? It's available through amazon.de

 

[Orionblamblam]

I have the book by Rudolf Lusar. The main problem with thinking like a denialist is this: Would my country look better to history if I just made stuff up?

Ask your friendly neighborhood Truther, Creationist, alien abductee, anti-nuker or Holocaust-Hoaxer. People do just *love* to make stuff up.

Actaully, the more important point is that the "denialist" wouldn't be the one thinking about making stuff up. The "denialist," who is far more often a "skeptic," is the one looking for proof, or at least good evidence, to be presented by the "believer." When the "believer" insists upon not providing any actual proof, and the "skeptic" keeps pointing that fact out, the "believer" has no choice but to try to change the game by changing the terms in use. Thus an insistence upon claims being backed up is termed "denial."

But please, go ahead and provide some sort of wartime German documentation proving the existence of the "Himmelsturmer." Don't worry, I'll wait.

 

[Michel Van]

But please, go ahead and provide some sort of wartime German documentation proving the existence of the "Himmelsturmer." Don't worry, I'll wait.

oh yes I wait also to see that documentation !

back to Ernst Zundel
the truth about Zundel (old german name mean "igniter"): he is a opportunist-wannabes Nazi
He run away from German 1958 because he had to be conscripted in Bundeswehr (German Army)!
real Neo-Nazi consider the Bundeswehr despicable in comparison with the Third Reich Wehrmacht

1970s he publish Book about NAZI UFO and Super secret NAZI Base in Antarctica crap and makes big money
in "Giving the Devil His Due" by Frank Miele, there interview with Zundel

I realized that North Americans were not interested in being educated. They want to be entertained.
The book was for fun. With a picture of the Führer on the cover and flying saucers coming out of Antarctica it was a chance to get on radio and TV talk shows.
For about 15 minutes of an hour program I'd talk about that esoteric stuff.
Then I would start talking about all those Jewish scientists in concentration camps, working on these secret weapons.
And that was my chance to talk about what I wanted to talk about."
"In that case," I asked him, "do you still stand by what you wrote in the UFO book?" "Look,"
He replied, "it has a question mark at the end of the title.

then in 1980 he make a profit with Holocaust denial
unfortunately for him, German deparment of Justist notice his work and he get prosecute by Holocaust survivor
end up in Canada Prision then he move to USA , same procedure as in Canada
then get deported to German, same procedure as in Canada and USA
now He out from German Prison and hide in Black forest, far far away from real Neo Nazi in East Germany
USA & Canada don't want him back :
by the way, Zundel maternal grandparents were Jewish...

How about Die Realität der Flugscheiben by J. Andreas Epp? It's available through amazon.de

this one rare book that look from realistic point of view (Interview, patents, documentation )
so no crap of opportunist-wannabes Nazis.

 

[Orionblamblam]

How about Die Realität der Flugscheiben by J. Andreas Epp? It's available through amazon.de

this one rare book that look from realistic point of view (Interview, patents, documentation )
so no crap of opportunist-wannabes Nazis.

Does the book provide any hard documentation on "German flying saucers" or "Himmelsturmer" from *before* the 1950s? I don't mean vague newspaper accounts, I mean *documentation.*

 

[Michel Van]

Does the book provide any hard documentation on "German flying saucers" or "Himmelsturmer" from *before* the 1950s? I don't mean vague newspaper accounts, I mean *documentation.*

Nothing about Himmelsturmer
the book look into disk aircraft documentation Proposals and patents to RLM during Third Reich.
J. Andreas Epp encounter during his work in WW2
the only problem the information source is lost as Epp died several years ago

 

[Orionblamblam]

the book look into disk aircraft documentation Proposals and patents to RLM during Third Reich.

Does it actually present that documentation, or just make claims?

 

[Michel Van]

Good question
i have look in cellar and dig true stock of Old Books
some were lies a copy of "Die realität der Flugscheiben"

 

[edwest4]

There are a series of documents. One is a request to the Counter-Intelligence Corps in Germany to make discreet inquiries regarding possible flying saucer design work and construction. Here is a reference to the end result of the inquiry:

SECRET
Headquarters Berlin Command
Office of Military Government Europe, Germany (US)
S-2 Branch
APO 742, US Army
16 December 1947

Subject: Horton Brothers (Flying Saucers)

"While they agree that such a design would be highly practical and desirable, they do not know anything about its possible realization now or in the past."


This was the concensus among the group of German aviation specialists interviewed. There are also documents from Wright Field that draw conclusions from enemy interrogation reports.

 

[Orionblamblam]

There are a series of documents. One is a request to the Counter-Intelligence Corps in Germany to make discreet inquiries regarding possible flying saucer design work and construction. Here is a reference to the end result of the inquiry:...16 December 1947

Interesting that it's dated late 1947. The "flying saucer" craze really began with Arnold's sighting in June of '47. A request for information six months later would indicate not that the Germans had such tech, but that someone simply wanted to know if they did.

"While they agree that such a design would be highly practical and desirable, they do not know anything about its possible realization now or in the past."

This was the concensus among the group of German aviation specialists interviewed.

Further arguing that there was no such thing as Lusar's "flying saucer" being developed in Germany.

By far the most likely explanation of what happened here:

STAGE ONE:

1) WWII, a war that began with fabric-covered biplanes and cavalry charges, ends a few years later with hypersonic exotmospheric vehicles, jet propulsion, actual robots and weapons that seemingly tear apart the fabric of space and time
2) As a result of these developments, coupled with the horrors of the war, many in the public go kinda "funny."
3) There are new things in the sky... jet fighters of new shapes that go far faster than people are used to seeing planes go.
4) As a result of inconceivable advances, people going "funny," weird things in the sky and the general sense that the claims of science fiction have come true, it becomes easy for a lot of people to quickly grab onto anything even vaguely mysterious and attribute "science fiction" explanations to it. "Flying Saucers" are the primary result of that, with people seeing, believing they're seeing, or just plain wanting to see flying saucers in the sky.

STAGE TWO

1) The flying saucer craze expands, penetrates deeper and wider into popular culture
2) But the damned things don't land on the White House lawn
3) An alternate explanation is needed as to why the saucers aren't stopping in for tea and cookies
4) It's the US government
5) It's the Russians
6) Hey, how about the Nazis? Hitler clearly got away. The Nazis were evil on a level never before experienced. The Nazis were into the occult. the Nazis were into super-science. It makes sense... the flying saucers are Nazis!
7) Here, I'll just embellish my book on German Secret Weapons with this little pop-cultural reference. It'll help me sell a few extra copies...

 

[edwest4]

I have worked professionally in book publishing for over 25 years. I have studied facts and figures for the United States and Europe. One of the biggest falsehoods ever perpetrated is the idea that people make tremendous amounts of money on such things.

There is also a documented sighting involving multiple witnesses at the Muroc Army Air Base on 8 July 1947. The great concern at the time was that these were Russian based on captured German designs.

 

[Orionblamblam]

One of the biggest falsehoods ever perpetrated is the idea that people make tremendous amounts of money on such things.

Thank you for making my point for me. As *I* well, know, there's little enough money to be had in writing. What money there is to be had is found in writing things that are exciting. Thus the natural drive to publish books or magazine articles on topics that are popular Right Now. If I could somehow work sparkly teen vampires and zombie invasions into the next issue of APR without completely blowing my self respect, I'd do so in a heartbeat and finally make a couple of bucks.

As Zundel showed, you can sell lots of crap if you know how.

The great concern at the time was that these were Russian based on captured German designs.

Which if course provides zero evidence that the Germans or Russians were actually working on any such thing. When people - and this includes Air Force people - see something they don't understand, there is a drive to wallpaper their impression of it with what they know. Humans seem to have distaste for "I don't know." We've got to know. And if the only way to "know" is to make something up or assume that this thing that we have zero verifiable data on is related to this other thing which happens to be interesting to us right now... well, how else to explain superstition?

 

[Michel Van]

i Found my Copy of "Die Realität der Flugscheiben" by by J. Andreas Epp
and read it:

EPIC FAIL (thanks to my blurry Memory)

the Book is a crossover of a J. Andreas Epp biography and his accounts about Flugscheiben at RLM
the Documents are POST war 1958 and two blurry picture from 1945 show a splotch in sky

no hard evidence in form of RLM Documents

mean while in Utah at Scott Lowther home:

Har Har

 

[Orionblamblam]

EPIC FAIL (thanks to my blurry Memory)

Don't feel too bad. Blurry memories have given the world half the nonsensical, non-factual "events" in recorded history. As for the other half... well, as is so often the case, Dr. Gregory House provides a succinct explanation. From tonight's new episode:

"Causal determinism. We are hardwired to need answers. The caveman who heard a rustle in the bushes and checked out to see what it was lived longer than the guy who assumed it was just a breeze. The problem is, when we don't find a logical answer we settle for a stupid one. Ritual is what happens when we run of of rational."

While House wasn't refering to flying saucers here, the arguement is just as valid. Humans need answers, and when we can't find good ones, we'll make up bad ones. And sadly, for too many people and too many topics, a dull, mundane answer that perfectly and easily fits the facts is not a "good" answer. 9/11, flying saucers, the Loch Ness Monster and the Bimini Road scream to mind as "mysteries" that are easily and sufficiently solved by the mundane, but which some people just gotta have somethign more interesting.

Off topic? Well, maybe.

 

[Michel Van]

Off topic? Well, maybe.

No way
The Hammer hit the Nail right !
this is right comment about this topic of Vague Nazi Hardware and mysteries

 

[Grey Havoc]

After coming across this topic today, I did a quick bit of research on the subject of small pulse jets.

Assuming for the moment that the Himmelstürmer did indeed use two small pulse jets, rather than two small low powered liquid fueled rockets, as some sources seem to suggest, there seems to be two main ways, based on the technology available at the time, that they could have approached the problem (based on the traditional pulse jet that is, see further below):

Pulse jet with aspiration-

In this type of pulse jet, the fuel is drawn into the engine through an atomizer by the air which enters through the intake. The main advantage of this is that it is very simple and requires no fuel pump or other ancillary equipment. It also doesn't require that much operator interaction (just turn on and off). Therefore it's the most likely approach to have been used with regards as to the (pulse jet based) Himmelstürmer. The three most likely fuels, IMHO, that might have been used by the Germans in this case are, in descending order of likelyhood, methanol, kerosene or diesel.


Pulse jet with injection-

Here, the fuel is sprayed directly into the combustion chamber where it then mixes with air that has already passed through the valves. This allows one to throttle the engine simply by varying the amount of fuel injected. The major downside is that it normally requires the use of a pressurized fuel system such as a bladder or pump. Given the available information on the Himmelstürmer, this would seem to be the least likely approach used, unless they went with a pressurized gas as the fuel (removing the need for a pump), and even then it's doubtful.


Now, there is a third possible approach that the designers could have gone with, that being the valveless (also known as a acoustic-type) pulse jet. However, while they can be quite compact, and easy to build, use and maintain, I'm not sure that fuel efficient valveless pulse jets were developed before the post-WWII era. Although, given the known operational requirements for the Himmelstürmer system, that might not have been a insurmountable problem in the eyes of the design team. For the moment though, I would tend towards the first approach described as being the most likely used.

Whichever approach they did use, one way they might have improved the jump performance of the Himmelstürmer is through the use of an augmenter placed in the pulse jets exhaust. This would improve both the amount of thrust produced as well as overall fuel efficiency. The major disadvantage of augmenters is that, beyond a certain point at higher speeds, the drag they produce can offset their advantages. On the other hand, at slower speeds (and/or in short hops!) augmenters can be very effective indeed. I'm not sure how advanced augmenter related research was in WWII Germany though.

 

[RanulfC]

Just for informational purposes;
Probably the best site for information and research on "home-made" and experimental jets, pulsejets, ramjets, and rockets
http://www.pulse-jets.com/

This page has a .pdf by Bruno Ogorelec that is probably one of the most comprehenive histories on the valveless pulse jet ever
http://www.pulse-jets.com/pulse3.htm

http://www.pulse-jets.com/pulse3.htm

It mentions that while the Argus company is arguably more well known for their valved-pulsejet design(s) used on the V-1, they had in fact been working on valveless pulsejets, specifically a variety of "Capped-Tube" pulsejet which would been ideal for a project such as this IF it could be made to work properly. However they were supposedly ordered to drop the valveless work and concentrate on improving the performance of the valved Argus engines.

I'll also note that Boeing proposed using "Capped-Tube" valveless-pulsejets in one of their (2004 IIRC) VTOL transport designs. (Which it seems has either just been 'rediscovered' or they are pitching it again: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2011/07/video-boeings-all-new-advanced.html )

So while I'm at it I'll point out that the Bruno Ogorelec article also mentions that Messerschimtt in the early '70s had a program testing a valveless pulsejet that was designed to become a ramjet at higher speed. I can't seem to find a whole lot about it and when I wrote Bruno he found that the majority of his information on the project had become corrupted and last I heard he was also trying to regain the information he'd had.

I don't suppose anyone here knows anything?

Randy

 

[Grey Havoc]

A DARPA sponsored thesis paper from 2005 regarding work on a 15 centimeter class pulsejet engine: http://repository.lib.ncsu.edu/ir/bitstream/1840.16/1999/1/etd.pdf