Question re Douglas A-4 Skyhawk & North American FJ-4B Fury/F-86 Sabre

[Pioneer]

G'day all

A couple of questions regarding the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk and North American FJ-4B Fury/F-86 Sabre, if I could please

As far as the the iconic Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, I found the following comment:
"The Bureau of Aeronautics decided that Douglas' Ed Heinemann wasn't paying proper attention to its concerns about the A4D Skyhawk program so it contracted with North American for an attack variant of the FJ-4."

(Source: Tommy H. Thomason, 2016. North American FJ-4/4B Fury Notes
http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2016/10/north-american-fj-44b-fury-notes.html?m=1)

Can I ask if someone could elaborate as to what these "concerns about the A4D Skyhawk program" was?

As for the question pertaining to the North American FJ-4B Fury/F-86 Sabre, can anyone knowladgable of the FJ-4B and F-86 makeup/engineering be able to allude to whether it would have be feasible to incorporate the FJ-4B's wing to the F-86 fuselage, without major engineering work?, as I'm aware and appreciate that the FJ-4B's fuselage was almost a complete new design, from all that I've read.

Thank you in advance.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Pioneer, Tommy T can answer the first part - he'll find this I am sure. I would guess that it came to be to keep Doulgas "honest" - knowing that there was a possible replacement out there if Doulgas screwed up. Remember too that Douglas/Ed Heinemann was bucking the design trends going with the A4D design - maybe some in the Navy didn't see it working and needed a fallback just in case. As to the FJ-4B/F-86 blend, the FJ-4B was a totally new airframe, new engine (and related air intake/duct) and the wing was new as well - thinner airfoil, different planform (more area) with all internal fuel - all of that would lead me to think it would be impossible, or at least not worth the design/engineering effort, to put the two together. Remember too that the Fury was essentially the end of the development of the Sabre line and essentially the 3rd generation of the original design with the F-86H/FJ-3 being the 2nd generation.

HTH! Mark

 

[Pioneer]

Pioneer, Tommy T can answer the first part - he'll find this I am sure. I would guess that it came to be to keep Doulgas "honest" - knowing that there was a possible replacement out there if Doulgas screwed up. Remember too that Douglas/Ed Heinemann was bucking the deisgn trends going with the A4D design - maybe some in the Navy didn't see it working and needed a fallback just in case. As to the FJ-4B/F-86 blend, the FJ-4B was a totally new airframe, new engine (and related air intake/duct) and the wing was new as well - thinner airfoil, different planform (more area) with al internal fuel - all of that would lead me to think it would be impossible, or at least not worth the design/engineering effort, to put the two together. Remember too that the Fury was essentially the end of the development of the Sabre line and essentially the 3rd generation of the original design with the F-86H/FJ-3 being the 2nd generation.

HTH! Mark

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my question Mark.
Your analogy of "Remember too that Douglas/Ed Heinemann was bucking the deisgn trends going with the A4D design - maybe some in the Navy didn't see it working and needed a fallback just in case." is very interesting and a perspective I never thought of, but makes sense now that you've said it.

I also hear what you're saying re the FJ-4B being a 'new airframe, having a new engine/ air intake/duct, to say nothing about it "worth the design/engineering effort, to put the two together."
The reason I asked, was the curiosity as to whether a F-86 with the wing of the FJ-4B might have been studied by NAA to formulate a more effective ground attack derivative, as an alternative to the problematic Republic F-84F Thunderstreak.....

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Pioneer, Tommy T can answer the first part - he'll find this I am sure. I would guess that it came to be to keep Doulgas "honest" - knowing that there was a possible replacement out there if Doulgas screwed up. Remember too that Douglas/Ed Heinemann was bucking the deisgn trends going with the A4D design - maybe some in the Navy didn't see it working and needed a fallback just in case. As to the FJ-4B/F-86 blend, the FJ-4B was a totally new airframe, new engine (and related air intake/duct) and the wing was new as well - thinner airfoil, different planform (more area) with al internal fuel - all of that would lead me to think it would be impossible, or at least not worth the design/engineering effort, to put the two together. Remember too that the Fury was essentially the end of the development of the Sabre line and essentially the 3rd generation of the original design with the F-86H/FJ-3 being the 2nd generation.

HTH! Mark

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my question Mark.
Your analogy of "Remember too that Douglas/Ed Heinemann was bucking the deisgn trends going with the A4D design - maybe some in the Navy didn't see it working and needed a fallback just in case." is very interesting and a perspective I never thought of, but makes sense now that you've said it.

I also hear what you're saying re the FJ-4B being a 'new airframe, having a new engine/ air intake/duct, to say nothing about it "worth the design/engineering effort, to put the two together."
The reason I asked, was the curiosity as to whether a F-86 with the wing of the FJ-4B might have been studied by NAA to formulate a more effective ground attack derivative, as an alternative to the problematic Republic F-84F Thunderstreak.....

Regards
Pioneer

A shame that Circle 5 is not still with us - he'd likely have the proposal model if they actually studied that!

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

G'day all

A couple of questions regarding the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk and North American FJ-4B Fury/F-86 Sabre, if I could please

As far as the the iconic Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, I found the following comment:
"The Bureau of Aeronautics decided that Douglas' Ed Heinemann wasn't paying proper attention to its concerns about the A4D Skyhawk program so it contracted with North American for an attack variant of the FJ-4."

(Source: Tommy H. Thomason, 2016. North American FJ-4/4B Fury Notes
http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2016/10/north-american-fj-44b-fury-notes.html?m=1)

Can I ask if someone could elaborate as to what these "concerns about the A4D Skyhawk program" was?

As for the question pertaining to the North American FJ-4B Fury/F-86 Sabre, can anyone knowladgable of the FJ-4B and F-86 makeup/engineering be able to allude to whether it would have be feasible to incorporate the FJ-4B's wing to the F-86 fuselage, without major engineering work?, as I'm aware and appreciate that the FJ-4B's fuselage was almost a complete new design, from all that I've read.

Thank you in advance.

Regards
Pioneer

The BuAer concerns about the A4D Skyhawk program were described in some detail in my book, Scooter!. In summary, BuAer engineering, which was already offended by the lack of Heinemann’s respect (with the BuAer Class Desk Officer’s acquiescence) for their design requirements when the A4D was created, were dissatisfied with Douglas management’s response to the need to make changes to correct deficiencies reported by Patuxent River. One example: a Douglas test pilot informally advised his NATC counterparts about an A4D-2 PIO problem and implied that Douglas engineering was not addressing it. The NATC pilots agreed after their flights and insisted that it be corrected.

 

[Pioneer]

Thank you Tailspin Turtle for your reply, I apologise for my late acknowledgement.

Been thinking about previous well founded replies to my question pertaining to the marriage of the F-86 Sabre fuselage with the wing of the FJ-4B Fury...Appreciating more now about the FJ-4B having "new engine (and related air intake/duct)", I'm wondering hypothetically if the CAC CA-27 Avon Sabre fuselage could have been a better choice to mate to the FJ-4B wing...what with it already incorporating it's more powerful the Rolls-Royce Avon R.A.7 and it's already re-designed fuselage and 25 percent increase in the size of its air intake/duct??

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Thank you Tailspin Turtle for your reply, I apologise for my late acknowledgement.

Been thinking about previous well founded replies to my question pertaining to the marriage of the F-86 Sabre fuselage with the wing of the FJ-4B Fury...Appreciating more now about the FJ-4B having "new engine (and related air intake/duct)", I'm wondering hypothetically if the CAC CA-27 Avon Sabre fuselage could have been a better choice to mate to the FJ-4B wing...what with it already incorporating it's more powerful the Rolls-Royce Avon R.A.7 and it's already re-designed fuselage and 25 percent increase in the size of its air intake/duct??

Regards
Pioneer

I don't know why this popped up as a recent post but I certainly missed it the first time. The major FJ-4 change to the FJ-3 was the wing and horizontal tail. Much if not most of the FJ-3 fuselage was retained as well as its J65 engine and inlet (there was a change in inlet size between the FJ-2 and FJ-3 because of the different mass flow requirements of the J47 and J65). As far as your hypothetical goes, I got nothing.