Project Gun-Val F-84F

[Sabrejet]

I'm trying to find details of the armament used in (two?) F-84Fs used in Project Gun-Val. So far I've come up with nothing though I was reliably informed that such a thing existed.

Can anyone help?

 

[Pioneer]

Good luck with your endeavour Sabrejet.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Foo Fighter]

Only thing I know of is this. http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=19927

 

[okakac]

I have the impression that Sabrejet is basically the only person who asks the particular question depending on what Google and Yandex give as the first finds.

A mindless speculation, if allowed, might be two guns in the nose and two in the wing roots.

 

[Sabrejet]

Only thing I know of is this. http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=19927

I'm looking for F-84F, not F-86.

Some time ago a North American tech rep told me that aside from the other Gun-Val aircraft there were (two?) F-84Fs converted also. There is IIRC a mention in one of the Jay Miller books too so there seems to be a weak thread.

It's my hope that someone might one day stumble across a reference and answer the riddle. It has occurred over the years that possibly the F-84F was a year or so late and that maybe the Gun-Val reference relates to F-84E or G but who knows?

Some of the weapons that came out of Gun-Val were quite off-the-wall so I can't even guess what the armament would have been.

 

[Wowness]

If F-84's were involved, the F-86F's known to have been used were fitted with 4 20mm M39 cannon in place of the 6 .50cal. 'Wings of Fame' journal Vol. 4 has a short narrative mentioning one of the outcomes was the decision to fit the F-86H with 20mm.

I'm personally wary about the story of the F-84F being involved since GunVal took place during the Korean War, which the F-84F didn't serve (wasn't in service until 1954), and the similarities of "F-84F" and "F-86F", like something could have misspoken or mistyped. If I'm wrong and the F-84 was used, maybe it didn't get very far to bother documenting properly.

 

[Christopher Wang]

I suppose the closest thing would be the Republic XF-91 Thunderceptor's nose armament of four M24 cannons with 200 rounds per gun, two in the upper nose and two in the lower fuselage.

SOURCE: Headnaught. (2022, March 29). Republic XF-91 Thunderceptor. War Thunder. Retrieved from https://old-forum.warthunder.com/in...-republic-xf-91-thunderceptor-where-is-the-e/

 

[_Del_]

If F-84's were involved, the F-86F's known to have been used were fitted with 4 20mm M39 cannon in place of the 6 .50cal. 'Wings of Fame' journal Vol. 4 has a short narrative mentioning one of the outcomes was the decision to fit the F-86H with 20mm.

Problem with that is there isn't enough space in the nose, imo. There are only four fifties in the nose. They aren't all close packed like the six in the Sabre.
Maybe room for a couple 20mm or the .60 they played with.

Might be why it didn't progress to completion or go very far if it did.

 

[Sabrejet]

I'm personally wary about the story of the F-84F being involved since GunVal took place during the Korean War, which the F-84F didn't serve (wasn't in service until 1954), and the similarities of "F-84F" and "F-86F", like something could have misspoken or mistyped. If I'm wrong and the F-84 was used, maybe it didn't get very far to bother documenting properly.

Gun-Val continued for some time after Korea, and was not restricted to use of F-86Fs; hence my query.

 

[Sabrejet]

I suppose the closest thing would be the Republic XF-91 Thunderceptor's nose armament of four M24 cannons with 200 rounds per gun, two in the upper nose and two in the lower fuselage.

SOURCE: Headnaught. (2022, March 29). Republic XF-91 Thunderceptor. War Thunder. Retrieved from https://old-forum.warthunder.com/in...-republic-xf-91-thunderceptor-where-is-the-e/

Thanks for this: I hadn't thought of the M24, and the Thunderceptor installation shows that it could have been possible. Incidentally the NAA Tech rep who mentioned the F-84F installation had supported Gun-Val F-86Fs in Korea, so if he said it was an F-84F, it definitely wasn't an F-86F.

I think for now I'll have to go with "query - F-84F/M24" for the missing Gun-Val type. It's my assumption that there would have been two examples converted, and since it was an APGC project I'm also trying to pin down an Eglin link and/or Project code.

 

[riggerrob]

In his auto-biography, Grumman test-pilot Corky Meyers briefly mentions a similar experiment with fitting 4 swiveling .50 calibre machineguns in the nose of a Panther jet fighter. Since none of the Grumman test-pilots could figure out how to aim the cannons, the project was soon dropped.

 

[Sabrejet]

In his auto-biography, Grumman test-pilot Corky Meyers briefly mentions a similar experiment with fitting swiveling cannons in the nose of a Panther jet fighter. Since none of the Grumman test-pilots could figure out how to aim the cannons, the project was soon dropped.

Yes I've seen photos: there was a similar F-89 fit but the Grumman project wasn't part of Gun-Val.

 

[Temistocle]

In his auto-biography, Grumman test-pilot Corky Meyers briefly mentions a similar experiment with fitting swiveling cannons in the nose of a Panther jet fighter. Since none of the Grumman test-pilots could figure out how to aim the cannons, the project was soon dropped.

It was a Panther with an Emerson turret with four .50 guns, it was a sort of "all-around" Schraege Musik
Here the description from Wikipedia:

A U.S. Navy Grumman F9F-3 Panther (BuNo 122562) operated by the Naval Air Test Center at Patuxent River, Maryland (USA). This aircraft was fitted with an experimental electro-hydraulically driven Emerson Aero X17A roll-traverse turret housing four 12.7 mm machine guns, in 1950. The idea was that the aircraft could destroy enemy bombers while avoiding the fire of the tail gunner. The guns could be directed at any angle from directly forward to 20 degrees aft, and the gun mount could roll 360 degrees. The roll rate was 100 degrees per second, and the guns could be traversed at up to 200 degrees per second. Unfortunately, the volume required for the fire control system avionics, and the sheer weight of the turret, made it impractical for single-seat fighters and the program was cancelled in early 1954.



Panther with Emerson nose turret

I know, it is Wikipedia, but the original link to the Naval Aviation Museun does not work, and the Museum website says "we are upgrading our popular feature that allows online visitors to search the museum’s database".

 

[Sabrejet]

The Panther wasn't one of the Gun-Val aircraft though. However I do think we may have a winner with the F-84F/M24 combination. I'd also suspect it would possibly pass by without much of a second look.

 

[iverson]

I thought that I had posted these before, but the Search function is not working for me at present. So...

GUNVAL evaluated the gun-like T-110 rocket launcher, 4 x 30-mm Oerlikon 302RK cannon, and a Martin D-1 nose turret with 4 x 20-mm (?) guns:

 

[Sabrejet]

...but no F-84F!!!!

 

[iverson]

...but no F-84F!!!!

No. I have never seen any evidence that the F-84 was part of the project.

 

[iverson]

The F-94 was also evaluated during GUNVAL with a 20-mm Vulcan gun:

 

[BlackBat242]

It was a Panther with an Emerson turret with four .50 guns, it was a sort of "all-around" Schraege Musik
Here the description from Wikipedia:

A U.S. Navy Grumman F9F-3 Panther (BuNo 122562) operated by the Naval Air Test Center at Patuxent River, Maryland (USA). This aircraft was fitted with an experimental electro-hydraulically driven Emerson Aero X17A roll-traverse turret housing four 12.7 mm machine guns, in 1950. The idea was that the aircraft could destroy enemy bombers while avoiding the fire of the tail gunner. The guns could be directed at any angle from directly forward to 20 degrees aft, and the gun mount could roll 360 degrees. The roll rate was 100 degrees per second, and the guns could be traversed at up to 200 degrees per second. Unfortunately, the volume required for the fire control system avionics, and the sheer weight of the turret, made it impractical for single-seat fighters and the program was cancelled in early 1954.

View attachment 745418

Panther with Emerson nose turret

 

[iverson]

Two F-86F-3 Sabres received 4 x 20-mm Oerlikon 206RK cannon instead of the 4 x T-160 (M-39) guns used on the F-86F-2s:

 

[Sabrejet]

No. I have never seen any evidence that the F-84 was part of the project.

This was the point of my post; we seem to have drifted somewhat. From previous experience, lack of evidence isn't evidence. So I'm still trying to proceed further. The person who told me about the F-84F involvement was a colleague of Hank Juul (one of the two NAA techs in the second F-86F-3 photo above). So it has provenance and credibility. As also mentioned I recall that Jay Miller also referenced it.