Steve Pace
Aviation History Writer
- Joined
- 6 January 2013
- Messages
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I'm hoping to acquire info/images re Piper PA-48 Enforcer program. -SP
Jos Heyman said:For starters:
Piper PA-48 Enforcer
Specifications:
span: 41'4", 12.60 m
length: 34'2", 10.41 m
engines: 1 Avco Lycoming T55 L 9
max. speed: 315 mph, 584 km/h
Being a turboprop development of the North American Mustang, a contract for two Enforcers was placed in September 1981 although the first aircraft had flown on 9 April 1981. From November 1983 to April 1984 the USAF evaluated the aircraft which, however, retained the civil registrations N481PE and N202PE.
F-14D said:Jos Heyman said:For starters:
Piper PA-48 Enforcer
Specifications:
span: 41'4", 12.60 m
length: 34'2", 10.41 m
engines: 1 Avco Lycoming T55 L 9
max. speed: 315 mph, 584 km/h
Being a turboprop development of the North American Mustang, a contract for two Enforcers was placed in September 1981 although the first aircraft had flown on 9 April 1981. From November 1983 to April 1984 the USAF evaluated the aircraft which, however, retained the civil registrations N481PE and N202PE.
USAF itself wasn't interested in the Enforcer. It was a severe case of "Not Invented Here", plus it was seen as an alternative to the A-10. Now, the A-10 was a plane USAF didn't particularly want (after the AH-56 was canceled and the A-7 scheduled for phaseout), but- "If we're going to get a plane we don't particularly want to fly a mission we're not that interested in, Dammit, we're not going to use someone else's plane we don't want, it'll be our plane we don't want".
Congress said the planes were to be delivered USAF for evaluation. They neglected, though, to mandate that USAF had to actually evaluate them. If I recall correctly, USAF wouldn't even let their pilots fly the planes for evaluation ("safety reasons", you know), and once the manufacturers trial were complete, they just sorta sat there.
frank said:Umm, how do you figure it wasn't invented here?
Abraham Gubler said:frank said:Umm, how do you figure it wasn't invented here?
Wasn’t invented by USAF. While Piper where busy sticking the nose of the YAT-28E on a Mustang USAF were specifying for a new CAS aircraft (later to become the A-10). They had given up on the essentially identical AT-28E Trojan and had their own plans for the AX. The Piper Enforcer just wasn’t what they wanted.
XB-70 Guy said:I'm hoping to acquire info/images re Piper PA-48 Enforcer program. -SP
frank said:I see. I always understood NIH to be Here being US of A.
Abraham Gubler said:frank said:Umm, how do you figure it wasn't invented here?
Wasn’t invented by USAF. While Piper where busy sticking the nose of the YAT-28E on a Mustang USAF were specifying for a new CAS aircraft (later to become the A-10). They had given up on the essentially identical AT-28E Trojan and had their own plans for the AX. The Piper Enforcer just wasn’t what they wanted.
XB-70 Guy said:I'm hoping to acquire info/images re Piper PA-48 Enforcer program. -SP
High-res images primarily. -SPF-14D said:XB-70 Guy said:I'm hoping to acquire info/images re Piper PA-48 Enforcer program. -SP
PA-48 can be thought of as son of Turbo Mustang III and grandson of Turbo Mustang II, both developed by Cavalier Aircraft, which at the time was quite successful modifying P-51s into two seaters for privat and executive use. (the Cavalier 2000).
Dug up some of my Enforcer stuff. What were you looking for?
Thanks for the tips! -SPArjen said:Images of Cavalier Mustang and Piper PA-48 Enforcer here: http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35137&hilit=enforcer
PA-48 being restored at Edwards AFB, ~2000: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/101-200/walk170_Piper%20Enforcer/walk170.htm
F-14D said:XB-70 Guy said:I'm hoping to acquire info/images re Piper PA-48 Enforcer program. -SP
PA-48 can be thought of as son of Turbo Mustang III and grandson of Turbo Mustang II, both developed by Cavalier Aircraft, which at the time was quite successful modifying P-51s into two seaters for privat and executive use. (the Cavalier 2000).
Dug up some of my Enforcer stuff. What were you looking for?
frank said:What was the Turbo Mustang II? I've never heard of it.
F-14D said:XB-70 Guy said:I'm hoping to acquire info/images re Piper PA-48 Enforcer program. -SP
PA-48 can be thought of as son of Turbo Mustang III and grandson of Turbo Mustang II, both developed by Cavalier Aircraft, which at the time was quite successful modifying P-51s into two seaters for privat and executive use. (the Cavalier 2000).
Dug up some of my Enforcer stuff. What were you looking for?
frank said:So the version that's commonly known as Turbo Mustang III is actually a Turbo Mustang II & the Turbo Mustang III was never built?
Stargazer2006 said:I've always loved the Enforcer and thought that the U.S.A.F. and U.S. Army had missed a great opportunity for COIN missions. Recent history seems to prove me right since they are now on the lookout for a similar type.
And NOT in the "defense" of the USAF, they were seriously considering GIVING the Army the A-10s in the inventory prior to 1991 as EVERY study done said that such close support aircraft could NEVER survive on a modern battlefield! (We were at the same time putting out reams of studies on how much BETTER a CAS version of the F-16 would be.... Hmmmm I don't THINK I see any "conflicting-interests" with this scenerio, but I could be mistaken!F-14D said:Stargazer2006 said:I've always loved the Enforcer and thought that the U.S.A.F. and U.S. Army had missed a great opportunity for COIN missions. Recent history seems to prove me right since they are now on the lookout for a similar type.
Nice info. In defense of the Army, it's not like they missed an opportunity. Under the "Roles and Missions" universe in which Army and USAF live, USAF would never have allowed Army to get such fixed wing (see armed Mohawk, or even USAF's reaction to AH-56 when Army mentioned that by putting the pusher in beta it could dive bomb). "It may not be a plane or mission we want, but there's no way we're gonna let them have it". This still continues to an extent today. Just take a look at the history of the JCA/C-27J program.
RanulfC said:And NOT in the "defense" of the USAF, they were seriously considering GIVING the Army the A-10s in the inventory prior to 1991 as EVERY study done said that such close support aircraft could NEVER survive on a modern battlefield! (We were at the same time putting out reams of studies on how much BETTER a CAS version of the F-16 would be.... Hmmmm I don't THINK I see any "conflicting-interests" with this scenerio, but I could be mistaken!F-14D said:Stargazer2006 said:I've always loved the Enforcer and thought that the U.S.A.F. and U.S. Army had missed a great opportunity for COIN missions. Recent history seems to prove me right since they are now on the lookout for a similar type.
Nice info. In defense of the Army, it's not like they missed an opportunity. Under the "Roles and Missions" universe in which Army and USAF live, USAF would never have allowed Army to get such fixed wing (see armed Mohawk, or even USAF's reaction to AH-56 when Army mentioned that by putting the pusher in beta it could dive bomb). "It may not be a plane or mission we want, but there's no way we're gonna let them have it". This still continues to an extent today. Just take a look at the history of the JCA/C-27J program.)
Course that all went straight out the window after the A-10 became the "star-of-the-show" during the 1991 Iraq Air Show and Combat Demonstration
RAndy
Stargazer2006 said:frank said:So the version that's commonly known as Turbo Mustang III is actually a Turbo Mustang II & the Turbo Mustang III was never built?
No. The Turbo Mustang III that was we know, which was a single prototype, was initially designated Turbo Mustang II and was rebuilt as the very first Piper Enforcer. It was rechristened as "III" in anticipation for a possible production version (following the Mustang I and Mustang II) that never materialized.
funkychinaman said:Any chance someone is going to whip out the Enforcer for the light attack competition? It looks like the OV-10 is going to be coming back for it.
frank said:My guess is that mainly due to it being taildragger, it won't be.
funkychinaman said:Any chance someone is going to whip out the Enforcer for the light attack competition? It looks like the OV-10 is going to be coming back for it.
Jemiba said:Two photos from the magazine FLUGZEUG 05/91, showing the Piper PA-48 Enforcer
and another one and a 3-view from "Flugzeuge der Welt 1972" , the German version of
Greens "Aircraft of the World", showing the PE-1 :
frank said:Hey, I just happened to think. The PE-1 & PA-48 were both called Enforcer, but the PE-1 was actually the Turbo Mustang III, basically a P-51D. with the Lycoming & the PA-48 was an entirely different airframe. I wonder if Piper was using a bit of deception there.
frank said:Hey, I just happened to think. The PE-1 & PA-48 were both called Enforcer, but the PE-1 was actually the Turbo Mustang III, basically a P-51D. with the Lycoming & the PA-48 was an entirely different airframe. I wonder if Piper was using a bit of deception there.
I was on the the Combined Test Force for the PA-48, working for AFOTEC at the time. My job was reliability and maintainability, so we focused on tracking failure rates on the aircraft during testing. I never sat in on any of the management meetings during the testing, and only heard the scuttlebutt from the enlisted troops, so take what a say here with a grain of salt. The word was that a bigwig at Piper (VP or something) thought up the idea for a cheap export attack aircraft. The rest of the company wasn't thrilled with the idea, but then the bigwig left Piper and became an executive at FAA. The folks at Piper figured that if they tried to cancel the project, it might make it difficult to keep getting their other planes certified by the FAA, so they presented it as an unsolicited proposal to the USAF, who was under some pressure to test it even if they didn't need it (they already had the A-10). The plane was an oddity, with turboprop engine replacing the existing engine with a prop from a C-130 with the tips cut short so they wouldn't hit the ground. I remember that the pilots had to wear running shoes to fly it because it was too difficult to control while wearing flight boots. It was supposed to operate out of unimproved fields, but we found that we could even control it during taxing on dirt fields, much less take off and land with it. It was to be equipped with a 30mm gun pod under each wing, but someone figured out before we tested the gun pods that if one fired and the other didn't, we would probably tear the wings off.Umm, how do you figure it wasn't invented here?
F-14D said:Jos Heyman said:For starters:
Piper PA-48 Enforcer
Specifications:
span: 41'4", 12.60 m
length: 34'2", 10.41 m
engines: 1 Avco Lycoming T55 L 9
max. speed: 315 mph, 584 km/h
Being a turboprop development of the North American Mustang, a contract for two Enforcers was placed in September 1981 although the first aircraft had flown on 9 April 1981. From November 1983 to April 1984 the USAF evaluated the aircraft which, however, retained the civil registrations N481PE and N202PE.
USAF itself wasn't interested in the Enforcer. It was a severe case of "Not Invented Here", plus it was seen as an alternative to the A-10. Now, the A-10 was a plane USAF didn't particularly want (after the AH-56 was canceled and the A-7 scheduled for phaseout), but- "If we're going to get a plane we don't particularly want to fly a mission we're not that interested in, Dammit, we're not going to use someone else's plane we don't want, it'll be our plane we don't want".
Congress said the planes were to be delivered USAF for evaluation. They neglected, though, to mandate that USAF had to actually evaluate them. If I recall correctly, USAF wouldn't even let their pilots fly the planes for evaluation ("safety reasons", you know), and once the manufacturers trial were complete, they just sorta sat there.
I was on the the Combined Test Force for the PA-48, working for AFOTEC at the time. My job was reliability and maintainability, so we focused on tracking failure rates on the aircraft during testing. I never sat in on any of the management meetings during the testing, and only heard the scuttlebutt from the enlisted troops, so take what a say here with a grain of salt. The word was that a bigwig at Piper (VP or something) thought up the idea for a cheap export attack aircraft. The rest of the company wasn't thrilled with the idea, but then the bigwig left Piper and became an executive at FAA. The folks at Piper figured that if they tried to cancel the project, it might make it difficult to keep getting their other planes certified by the FAA, so they presented it as an unsolicited proposal to the USAF, who was under some pressure to test it even if they didn't need it (they already had the A-10). The plane was an oddity, with turboprop engine replacing the existing engine with a prop from a C-130 with the tips cut short so they wouldn't hit the ground. I remember that the pilots had to wear running shoes to fly it because it was too difficult to control while wearing flight boots. It was supposed to operate out of unimproved fields, but we found that we could even control it during taxing on dirt fields, much less take off and land with it. It was to be equipped with a 30mm gun pod under each wing, but someone figured out before we tested the gun pods that if one fired and the other didn't, we would probably tear the wings off.Umm, how do you figure it wasn't invented here?
F-14D said:Jos Heyman said:For starters:
Piper PA-48 Enforcer
Specifications:
span: 41'4", 12.60 m
length: 34'2", 10.41 m
engines: 1 Avco Lycoming T55 L 9
max. speed: 315 mph, 584 km/h
Being a turboprop development of the North American Mustang, a contract for two Enforcers was placed in September 1981 although the first aircraft had flown on 9 April 1981. From November 1983 to April 1984 the USAF evaluated the aircraft which, however, retained the civil registrations N481PE and N202PE.
USAF itself wasn't interested in the Enforcer. It was a severe case of "Not Invented Here", plus it was seen as an alternative to the A-10. Now, the A-10 was a plane USAF didn't particularly want (after the AH-56 was canceled and the A-7 scheduled for phaseout), but- "If we're going to get a plane we don't particularly want to fly a mission we're not that interested in, Dammit, we're not going to use someone else's plane we don't want, it'll be our plane we don't want".
Congress said the planes were to be delivered USAF for evaluation. They neglected, though, to mandate that USAF had to actually evaluate them. If I recall correctly, USAF wouldn't even let their pilots fly the planes for evaluation ("safety reasons", you know), and once the manufacturers trial were complete, they just sorta sat there.