Piaggio P. 127C

[archipeppe]

Another interesting little-known Piaggio project. The P. 127 was started during wartime as possible long range transport aircraft especially for civil role (in that sense it could be a concurrent of both CANT Z-511 and BZ 308).

The P.127C was a huge aircraft (wingspan: 56m, max weight: 56,000 kg) with 6 x 2000 hp engines, 2 in the outer wings alone, and 4 paired (2 per each wing) moving counter-rotating propellers (like the following Bristol Brabazon and Saro Princess). The engine should probably the Piaggio P. XVI or XIX radial ones ranging from 1.700 to 2.000 CV
The P.127C could transport 40 passengers over the Atlantic and it was pressurized. The fuselage had a peculiar shape named "avion marin" designed like a ship's bottom in order to ease an eventual off nominal sea landing.

Some source reports of a bomber version of P. 127 but the few data available refers to the civil P. 127C.

 

[Grey Havoc]

The P.127C was a huge aircraft (wingspan: 56m, max weight: 56,000 kg) with 6 x 2000 hp engines, 2 in the outer wings alone, and 4 paired (2 per each wing) moving counter-rotating propellers (like the following Bristol Brabazon and Saro Princess). The engine should probably the Piaggio P. XVI or XIX radial ones ranging from 1.700 to 2.000 CV

Did they ever test bench a full scale XIX?

 

[archipeppe]

Did they ever test bench a full scale XIX?

Frankly speaking I don't know, probably Nico would has such furhter info about that.

Anyway since the P. 127C never left the drawing board there wasn't the needing for a full scale P. XIX in absence of any full scale mockup.

 

[airman]

nice project ! :
No more technical data ? ! ???

 

[Caravellarella]

Can we I see it in LAI - Linee Aeree Italiane livery please Archipeppe?

 

[archipeppe]

Can we I see it in LAI - Linee Aeree Italiane livery please Archipeppe?

The actual livery is LATI (Linee Aeree Transatlantiche Italiane) a side company of Ala Littoria.
In particular the paint scheme that I adopted for P. 127C is quite similiar to the SM 83 that was used during wartime for Italiy-Brasil connection flights.

 

[archipeppe]

Can we I see it in LAI - Linee Aeree Italiane livery please Archipeppe?

OK Terry, let me some days to elaborate the P. 127C in LAI (early '50s) livery and I will post it here....

 

[Skybolt]

The engines were to be Piaggio P.XXII RC.60s. Moreover, the base livery wasn't white, it was cream yellow. The P.127C will be one of the protagonists of the cover of ISP.

 

[Skybolt]

Some background info of the P.127C here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,656.msg4950.html#msg4950 .
BTW, the competitors of the P-127C were two other Piaggio's project, the P-108C and the P.126 (for both see above mentioned thread). Both were to be pressurized. The issue of pressurization of large cabins was a central project for Piaggio during 1940-1943. They purpose-built an airplane (P-111) solely to test their ideas on solving the related problems. The Cant-Z 511 and its derivative BZ-308 were different kind of beasts. Both weren't pressurized and the famous argument that the BZ-308 was "predisposed" to be pressurized is a marketing stunt on Breda's side after the war. The BZ-308 would have to be re-designed for pressurization and BTW Filippo Zattapa had no experience in pressurization. Even his much later AZ-8L (flying in the late 50s) wasn't pressurized. If the war had ended well for Italy, probably the LATI fleet by 1945-6 would have comprised a mix of P-108C and P-127C. Ala Littoria would had probably used SM-95s for European and Mediterranean routes.

 

[archipeppe]

The engines were to be Piaggio P.XXII RC.60s. Moreover, the base livery wasn't white, it was cream yellow. The P.127C will be one of the protagonists of the cover of ISP.

Interesting, I based my drawings upon some old Aerei (still Air Enthusiast at that times) articles appeared during '70s.
Regarding the LATI livery, I was misleaded by the b/w shots in which the colour appears white, anyway I could modify it.

In AEREI of June 1974 Gianni Nari wrote an interesting article about the "Transatlantici Piaggio" in which it was detailed the P. 127C, no indication was given about engines so I supposed to be P. XIX. In the same article Nari clamied that at the Armistice Day (8 September 1943) a full scale mock-up of the fuselage was already completed while the production drawings realization was ongoing, can you confirm this?

 

[Skybolt]

Peppe, ultimately ALL infos regarding the P-127C come from an old two-page article in "L'ALA", July-August 1946.... with some additional snippets coming from a document in the Archivio Centrale dello Stato in Rome detailing the status of work of Piaggio's factories at 8th September 1943. By that date a mock-up of a section of the fuselage (to study seats placement) was PARTIALLY completed in the Finale Ligure factory. The aerodynamic studies had been completed using the Finale's windtunnel and production drawings were on track (1,135 man-hours spent, so they were far from complete). An additional remark on P.XIXs . They were in full production in Pontedera in two versions, RC.45 (1,530 ordered by Regia) and RC.60 (720 ordered). P.XIX was a derivative of P.XI. On P.XXII: by 8th September 1943, the engine was being prepared for the 50 hours ground test.

 

[archipeppe]

Peppe, ultimately ALL infos regarding the P-127C come from an old two-page article in "L'ALA", July-August 1946.... with some additional snippets coming from a document in the Archivio Centrale dello Stato in Rome detailing the status of work of Piaggio's factories at 8th September 1943. By that date a mock-up of a section of the fuselage (to study seats placement) was PARTIALLY completed in the Finale Ligure factory. The aerodynamic studies had been completed using the Finale's windtunnel and production drawings were on track (1,135 man-hours spent, so they were far from complete). An additional remark on P.XIXs . They were in full production in Pontedera in two versions, RC.45 (1,530 ordered by Regia) and RC.60 (720 ordered). P.XIX was a derivative of P.XI. On P.XXII: by 8th September 1943, the engine was being prepared for the 50 hours ground test.

Thanks Skybolt, there's a lot of background infos that I really missed.

Anyway what happened to the mock-up?
Did it was dismantled after war or stored into caves (like the almost completed P. 133 prototype)?

 

[Grey Havoc]

So presumably development of the P. 127C started around the 1940-41 timeline, when the Axis powers thought they had the war won and could start planning for peacetime? I suppose serious consideration of the design as a long range bomber began during 1941-42 as events urgently proved the need for such a plane.

 

[archipeppe]

So presumably development of the P. 127C started around the 1940-41 timeline, when the Axis powers thought they had the war won and could start planning for peacetime? I suppose serious consideration of the design as a long range bomber began during 1941-42 as events urgently proved the need for such a plane.

Nari's article is according to that, P. 127C development started around mid-1940 when Italy has just entered in WWII and Germany seemed to be very closer to win. Unfortunately I don't have any data or further info about a P. 127 bomber version (if ever....).

 

[Caravellarella]

Can we I see it in LAI - Linee Aeree Italiane livery please Archipeppe?

OK Terry, let me some days to elaborate the P. 127C in LAI (early '50s) livery and I will post it here....

I was joking Archipeppe, I don't really expect you to generate new artwork on my account

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[archipeppe]

I was joking Archipeppe, I don't really expect you to generate new artwork on my account

Terry (Caravellarella)

Ok, I take the joke ;D

Anyway if you really desire to see the P. 127 in post war Italian livery.......

 

[Nico]

Hi Archipeppe and all,
as already explained Sky, the Piaggio P.XXII engine, an evolution of P.XII Tornado, was really built in prototype form. A preliminary study of the P.127 was completed on January 7 gennaio 1941 and, I presume, the wooden mock-up of the fuselage was built immediately after. Rather curiously Eng. Casiraghi referred only to six two-row aircooled radial engines, with compressor and reduction gear, rated at 1,875 CV for take-off and 1,600 CV at 6,000 m (2,200 rpm), without naming the type.
Technical data are the following:
Long-range passenger transport aircraft with a three-five crew, 36 pax
Fuel capacity 25,000 liters
Wing span 56,00 m
Lenght 42,00 m
Height 8,60 m
Wing area 250,0 sq. m
Empy weight 27,800 kg
Empty weight, equipped 28,500 kg
Useful load 21,500-22,200 (according to different documents)
Loaded weight 50,000 kg
Maximum take-off weight 56,000 kg
Wing loading 200 kg x sq m
Power loading (take-off) 4.45 kg:CV
Max speed 540 km/h at 6,000 m
Max cruise speed 505 km/h at 8,000
Econ cruise speed 475 km/h at 8,000 m
Stalling speed (with lowered flaps) 140 km/h
Service ceiling 10,500 m (10,000 m with two inoperative engines)
Take-off run 600 m
Max range (with 36 passengers and 3,600 kg luggage and freight load) 8,000 km
Probably the fuselage mock-up was dismantled, owing to space shortage, but perhaps some parts of it (like bert or seat sample) survive the war...
Nico

 

[Skybolt]

Yep, the data of the engine are identical to those of the P.XXII... two row, 18-cylinder etc. In the surviving infos, performance data are given in graphical form (two-axis graphs), so there are discrepancies in some data in dependance of assumptions.

 

[archipeppe]

Thanks Nico for the complete set of data about P. 127C.
Any further information about a potential P 127 bomber? Or such project, if ever existed, was stopped in favor of P. 133?

 

[Nico]

I think the P.127C was designed with the specific and exclusive task of fullfilling requirements for passenger transatlantic flight. I ignore any proposal about a P.127 bomber but probably, as you said, all the efforts were devoted to P.133
Nico

 

[Skybolt]

I confirm. There was no P-127C bomber version. A distant bomber derivative did exist, but wasn't the P-133, an evolution of the P-108 technology. The Casiraghi's stratosferic (i.e. pressurized) bomber was the P-130. Details here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,623.msg4732.html#msg4732 . BTW, the P-130 design was later than the P-133. The P-133 was originally known as P-108bis. It was renamed P-133 when Regia realized that it was a VERY different airplane. BTW, there WAS a P-133C... and it was pressurized. I ain't be able to find drawings or other data, though.

 

[Skybolt]

Uh, forgot... the aerodynamics studies done on the front section of the P-130 were reycled after the war in the P-108T-2, that had an almost identical Stratoliner-style nose. And the 108-T2 was to be partially pressurized (it was to be a mixed-mode transport), just like the P-130.
Nico, this could be of interest for the forthcoming Alberto's article on Piaggio projects. Just tell him to quote me..., please. ;D

 

[Nico]

Hi Skybolt,
unfortunately in those days the plannings of the publishers are very ephemeral and probably the idea of my son Alberto will remain only a dream. Any case, if something will be published he surely will quote your work.
Perhaps somewhere I had some artist impression of the P.127C or some photo of the wind tunnel models: if I'll manage to find that stuff I'll post in this blog
Nico

 

[Skybolt]

I've seen on the Net some photos of the P-127C tunnel models, a score of them are on show in the Piaggio Finale's museum.

 

[airman]

Hi Archipeppe and all,
as already explained Sky, the Piaggio P.XXII engine, an evolution of P.XII Tornado, was really built in prototype form. A preliminary study of the P.127 was completed on January 7 gennaio 1941 and, I presume, the wooden mock-up of the fuselage was built immediately after. Rather curiously Eng. Casiraghi referred only to six two-row aircooled radial engines, with compressor and reduction gear, rated at 1,875 CV for take-off and 1,600 CV at 6,000 m (2,200 rpm), without naming the type.
Technical data are the following:
Long-range passenger transport aircraft with a three-five crew, 36 pax
Fuel capacity 25,000 liters
Wing span 56,00 m
Lenght 42,00 m
Height 8,60 m
Wing area 250,0 sq. m
Empy weight 27,800 kg
Empty weight, equipped 28,500 kg
Useful load 21,500-22,200 (according to different documents)
Loaded weight 50,000 kg
Maximum take-off weight 56,000 kg
Wing loading 200 kg x sq m
Power loading (take-off) 4.45 kg:CV
Max speed 540 km/h at 6,000 m
Max cruise speed 505 km/h at 8,000
Econ cruise speed 475 km/h at 8,000 m
Stalling speed (with lowered flaps) 140 km/h
Service ceiling 10,500 m (10,000 m with two inoperative engines)
Take-off run 600 m
Max range (with 36 passengers and 3,600 kg luggage and freight load) 8,000 km
Probably the fuselage mock-up was dismantled, owing to space shortage, but perhaps some parts of it (like bert or seat sample) survive the war...
Nico

Thanks Nico !

 

[Nico]

Hi Peppe, Skybolt, Airman and all the friends,
digging in my archives I found a couple of photographs of a wooden model for wind tunnel tests, a drawing of a portion of wing and a fusleage section and a rather naif artist's impression of the Piaggio P.127C
Nico

 

[SAustin16]

Archipeppe,

Wonderful artwork. This is a truly beautiful aircraft on a par with the Boeing 307. It would have been wonderful to see one flying.

 

[archipeppe]

Hi Peppe, Skybolt, Airman and all the friends,
digging in my archives I found a couple of photographs of a wooden model for wind tunnel tests, a drawing of a portion of wing and a fusleage section and a rather naif artist's impression of the Piaggio P.127C
Nico

Many thanks Nico, wonderful images!! ;D

BTW I hope that your son Alberto will have the chance to realize the Piaggio projects publication, it would be something that really miss today in an ideal Italian aerospace library....

 

[Skybolt]

Thanks Nico for the art and the photos of the models in Finale...
The two section drawing were published, with more others, in the 1946 article in "L'Ala". You'll see all the drawings in ISP (and the performance graphs, too).

 

[theponja]

Wow!! Another beautiful profiles by archipeppe.

Nico thanks for the pictures, they're great.

What call my attention is how wide is the fuselage, it looks a bit like a lifting body.

 

[Skybolt]

The interesting thig is that it wasn't bouble bubble but directly elliptical in its strenght structure. The bottom was formed out of a long beam that doubled as the strenght element of the keel (the plane could land on open sea in an emergency). Much more in ISP...

 

[lol90oo]

Hi Peppe, Skybolt, Airman and all the friends,
digging in my archives I found a couple of photographs of a wooden model for wind tunnel tests, a drawing of a portion of wing and a fusleage section and a rather naif artist's impression of the Piaggio P.127C
Nico

Many thanks Nico, wonderful images!! ;D

BTW I hope that your son Alberto will have the chance to realize the Piaggio projects publication, it would be something that really miss today in an ideal Italian aerospace library....

hi i have a question about the piaggio p127C was it a wide body and how wide was its fuselage in meters ?

 

[archipeppe]

The P.127C was a huge aircraft (wingspan: 56m, max weight: 56,000 kg) with 6 x 2000 hp engines, 2 in the outer wings alone, and 4 paired (2 per each wing) moving counter-rotating propellers (like the following Bristol Brabazon and Saro Princess). The engine should probably the Piaggio P. XVI or XIX radial ones ranging from 1.700 to 2.000 CV

 

[Tonton-42]

Another interesting little-known Piaggio project. The P. 127 was started during wartime as possible long range transport aircraft especially for civil role (in that sense it could be a concurrent of both CANT Z-511 and BZ 308).

The P.127C was a huge aircraft (wingspan: 56m, max weight: 56,000 kg) with 6 x 2000 hp engines, 2 in the outer wings alone, and 4 paired (2 per each wing) moving counter-rotating propellers (like the following Bristol Brabazon and Saro Princess). The engine should probably the Piaggio P. XVI or XIX radial ones ranging from 1.700 to 2.000 CV
The P.127C could transport 40 passengers over the Atlantic and it was pressurized. The fuselage had a peculiar shape named "avion marin" designed like a ship's bottom in order to ease an eventual off nominal sea landing.

Some source reports of a bomber version of P. 127 but the few data available refers to the civil P. 127C.

Hello !
What we know about the landing gear ? Classic or with nose wheel (I think ... but ...) ? Many projects with some common characteristics at this time were on study for civilian or military duties (I think of Armagnac in France or C-74 in USA ... and BZ.308 !).

 

[archipeppe]

Classic tricycle with nose wheel:

 

[lol90oo]

Classic tricycle with nose wheel:

View attachment 686936

thanks a lot for the 3view plans also this plane is very wide i think its even wider than a 777 maybe