Orenda Waconda

[kaiserbill]

Does anyone know anything about this proposed Canadian engine? It was to be the follow on to the Orenda.
I have seen it variously described as a "20 000lbs" engine, also as a "10 000lbs" thrust engine, and as a "Super Orenda".
The thrust difference above obviously is a result of dry and wet thrust, and general thrust brackets.
The timeframe seems to be in the mid 1950's onwards, and it seems to be a rough competitor in time, thrust, and potential applications to the Avon/J-57/ATAR/Tumansky R-11 etc.
How far did it get?
There is not a great deal of info out there that I can find, beyond cursory mentions.

 

[Apophenia]

I'm very interested in this engine too. Quite appropriately, Waconda (or Wakan Tanka) means something like 'Great Mystery' in Lakota

The Waconda was aimed at the 1952 Avro Canada C104 programme (as a back-up option to the Olympus - Bristol BOl.3 or Curtiss-Wright licensed J67. Avro Canada hope to have the Waconda operational by 1953 but development was ended sometime after the Summer of 1953.

I too have noticed those 10,000 lbf or 20,000 lbf ratings. But I'm less sure these can be explained by dry and wet thrusts. Could any afterburner of that day actually double output? That 20,000 lbf rating seems to spring from aviation press articles written in the Spring of 1954. By that stage, the Waconda had already been eclipsed by the more powerful Iroquois (for the C105 project towards the RCAF's AIR 7-3 requirement).

I've seen the Waconda associated with the designation TR.9. And that brings up the tangle of Canadian corporate identities and their muddled designations. If the TR.9 designation is accurate, then it was part of a sequence inherited from the original Crown Corporation, Turbo Research Limited. Turbo Research was bought by AV Roe Canada in May 1946. Its production engines retained their Orenda names [1] but the firm was renamed as Avro Canada's Gas Turbine Division. A corporate reorganization after Hawker Siddeley's 1955 take-over saw the Gas Turbine Division become Orenda Engines.

I've also seen the Waconda dubbed the "PS-113 Super Orenda". Obviously 'PS-113' (sic) is a typo for PS.13 and 'Super Orenda' was certainly an early popular name for the PS.13 Iroquois. Confusion reigns!

So, yeah, who knows more? Bring on those fresh Waconda details!
_____________________

[1] BTW, the numbered Orenda names bear no relationship to the 'TR' designation numbers.[/I]

 

[kaiserbill]

Well, that's a whole lot more than I managed to find.
Thanks Apophenia.
I had wondered whether the Iroquois simply superseded it. (due to resources, not as a replacement)
I also wondered as well whether that 20 000lbs figure was Iroquois related...it's high for the early mid 1950's, especially for an engine starting in the 10 000lbs bracket.
It's worth noting the longevity of the engines that started in that thrust bracket I noted earlier. Avon, ATAR, J-79 etc all had long service, with developed variants of some of them still in service in their hundreds.

 

[Apophenia]

... It's worth noting the longevity of the engines that started in that thrust bracket I noted earlier. Avon, ATAR, J-79 etc all had long service, with developed variants of some of them still in service in their hundreds.

kaiserbill: Well worth noting! I'm not up on PS.13 Iroquois development but my impression is that the Iroquois represented a 'clean sheet' approach. By contrast, the Waconda - at least conceptually - was to be an evolved Orenda ... albeit a much more powerful evolution.

It is tempting to suggest - in light of your example engines - that Gas Turbine Division might have been better off sticking with their conceptual Orenda-on-steroids rather than going with the risks inherent in 'all new'. But weight-gain for AIR 7-3 was driving that particular bus ...

 

[Maury Markowitz]

I wonder if this is a further confusion of the original name for the Iroquois, Wendigo? Or perhaps the references to Wendigo are the ones that are incorrect? In any event, it seems that the possibility for confusion here is highly likely.

Orenda's buildings at the airport are now part of Magellan, I'll email them and see what turns up.

 

[Apophenia]

I wonder if this is a further confusion of the original name for the Iroquois, Wendigo? ...

Hard to say, since the name Waconda has been flung about at either end of PS.13 development.

So, was the Waconda the 'TR.9' and/or 'Super Orenda'? If so, it would have been the ultimate Orenda derivative.

Or, rather less likely, was the Waconda actually some kind of PS.13 development? Who knows?

What is sure is that the tribal name Iroquois was the outlier. The others - Orenda, Waconda, and Wendigo - all came from the Native American/First Nations spirit world.

I kind of like that the wendigo (wétiko/windigo) was a spirit turned from human origins into a monster via starvation-induced cannibalism. An excellent analogy for many Canadian procurement stories

Anyway, interested to hear if Magellan can provide any relevant information.

 

[Archibald]

Well if the Arrow had Wakanda technology, it explains why it was such a superlative aircraft... (I'll get my coat)

 

[medmatix]

The Arrow never got it's Orenda engines. It died breaking records with the Pratt and Whitney J77-P-3.
I am working on the sim model for XP-12 and I need the max inlet pressure (in KEAS) for it. I will however be even happier with the Orenda figures. Anybody aware of these?

 

[Apophenia]

The Arrow never got it's Orenda engines. It died breaking records with the Pratt and Whitney J77-P-3...

Typo: Pratt & Whitney J75-P-3s.

As for "never got", true if you're talking about flown prototypes. But, as a Secret Projects forum, surely we must count the near-complete Arrow 25206 (if not 25207)?

 

[F119Doctor]

The Arrow never got it's Orenda engines. It died breaking records with the Pratt and Whitney J77-P-3.
I am working on the sim model for XP-12 and I need the max inlet pressure (in KEAS) for it. I will however be even happier with the Orenda figures. Anybody aware of these?

Max inlet pressure is pretty easy to find out if you know maximum KEAS, unless there is a huge mismatch between the inlet and engine airflow characteristics.

Per Mil-E-5007D Inlet Pressure Recovery table in the P&W Aeronautical Vestpocket Handbook, inlet conditions at Sea Level, standard day at M1.2 / 793.6 Kts are 35.33 psia, 208.37 degrees F. That is pretty close to the low altitude 800 KEAS limit for most USAF fighter / attack aircraft like the F-4 / F-15 / F-16. 800 KEAS or KCAS is a very demanding part of the flight envelope and there are few aircraft that can safely operate past that point.