ONERA Espadon hypersonic combat aircraft concept

flateric

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View: https://twitter.com/OpexNews/status/1670746424777097216

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"Fighter" might be doing some heavy lifting here

Those engines look tiny for Mach 5. Maybe a bank of 4+ turboramjets with common inlet and exhaust? Or maybe totally made up?
 
It’s not a fighter. I believe it’s meant to explore the potential for a future unmanned nuclear vector to replace the ASMP-A missile.

It would take-off, accelerate to Mach 4, cruise to target, accelerate to a penetration speed of up to Mach 7, somehow drop a nuclear weapon, then return to base.

I admit I’m skeptical…
 
It’s not a fighter. I believe it’s meant to explore the potential for a future unmanned nuclear vector to replace the ASMP-A missile.

It would take-off, accelerate to Mach 4, cruise to target, accelerate to a penetration speed of up to Mach 7, somehow drop a nuclear weapon, then return to base.

I admit I’m skeptical…
Blackbirds demonstrated clean drops at Mach 3. As long as there's no plasma shock wave, targeting is relatively easy.
 
It’s not a fighter. I believe it’s meant to explore the potential for a future unmanned nuclear vector to replace the ASMP-A missile.
Thanks. Is there some French language reporting that says more?

I'm surprised at a potential bombing role rather than ISR. Anything about what munitions it might drop? Surely not gravity bombs in 2050.
 
Ah, now all those crazy references to Space Fighters that keep cropping in French articles criticising SCAF finally make sense.
I always thought it was journalistic fanboy fantasy but no it seems that ONERA really have been doodling this one...
 
It’s not a fighter. I believe it’s meant to explore the potential for a future unmanned nuclear vector to replace the ASMP-A missile.

It would take-off, accelerate to Mach 4, cruise to target, accelerate to a penetration speed of up to Mach 7, somehow drop a nuclear weapon, then return to base.

I admit I’m skeptical…
I wonder if you actually have read what ONERA's guy said at presscon...
 
I wonder if you actually have read what ONERA's guy said at presscon...
Yes and I noted that only the English-language media use the word “fighter”. In French the term being used is “avion hypersonique”… which is a lot more open ended than “chasseur”.

Connecting the dots to the French MoD’s current emphasis on hypersonic penetration for their nuclear vector, it seems likely that nuclear will be the core mission. Though given the timing (2050+) this would not be an immediate replacement for ASMP-A (that would be ASN4G).
 
...
 

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@flateric words matter. “Avion de combat” is not the same as “avion de chasse” or “chasseur”. By contrast NGF is specifically referred to as a “chasseur nouvelle génération”. It is therefore my strong belief that it is incorrect to refer to Espadon as a fighter.

Furthermore, it is also important to remember that FCAS/SCAF is a system of systems designed to perform several distinct missions, from nuclear penetration to air superiority. So just because Espadon is meant to be a follow-on doesn’t mean it will do all the SCAF missions - the nature of hypersonics mean that it should be focused on deep strike, which in France is always first and foremost a nuclear mission.
 
Whoa whoa, stop bickering, a cursory glance at the text shows it is unclear, switching back and forth between two different concepts.

En 2022, le ministère britannique de la Défense [MoD] fit savoir qu’il avait confié à Rolls Royce et à Reaction Engines le soin de développer un avion hypersonique monomoteur dans le cadre du projet « Concept V ». Et il suivait en cela le Pentagone, qui, deux ans plus tôt, via l’incubateur technologique de l’US Air Force [AFWERX], avait notifié un contrat au spécialiste des technologies aérospatiales Hermeus afin de réaliser une étude de concept sur un aéronef pouvant voler à un vitesse supérieure à Mach 5. Et cela alors que Lockheed-Martin était déjà en train de travailler sur le SR-72 « Son of Blackbird ».

Hypersonic aircraft, ok... the british, the Pentagon, Lockheed...

Cela étant, la France n’est pas en reste dans ce domaine. En 2019, l’Office national d’études et de recherches aéropatiales [ONERA] révéla qu’il avait été chargé de mener des travaux en vue de développer un « aéronef de combat hypersonique » pouvant « s’étendre à toute mission d’intérêt militaire ».

Ok, so -in 2019 ONERA said they were working on "an hypersonic combat aircraft" that can do "any mission of military interest" (fighter, bomber, reconnaissance, SUSTAIN, whatever)

Et d’ajouter : « Compte tenu de l’effort actuel consenti par les principales puissances militaires, il fait peu de doute que des armements hypersoniques figureront dans les arsenaux de plusieurs puissances à l’horizon 2030-2035 ».
And now we are discussing hypersonic weaponry (by an large: manned, cruise missiles, drones... whatever weaponry flies fast)

Il était alors question de développer un « système capable de réaliser une croisière haute altitude de longue durée, avec un fonctionnement global de type avion – avec des phases de décollage et d’atterrissage horizontaux sur une piste et une accélération autonome ». Cet avion devait voler à la vitesse minimum de Mach 4 en régime de croisière tout en étant capable d’atteindre Mach 7.

(facepalm) now it's "a system that can perform high altitude cruises, working more like a plane - that is taking off horizontally, landing horizontally, autonomous acceleration that is screw rocket boosters and scramjets for takeoff, more like TBCC. A plane that should cruise at mach 4 with a mach 7 top speed.

Cependant, peu de détails supplémentaires furent alors donnés par l’ONERA, les fiches programmatiques de sa feuille de route ayant été expurgées de toute référence à ce projet d’avion de combat hypervéloce.
Back to square one, little details given in 2019 by the ONERA. By 2019, its RFP had been expurged of any reference to military missions. The vehicle itself wasn't even mentionned in the last ONERA annual report.

Qui plus est, celui-ci n’a jamais été ouvertement évoqué par les responsables du ministère des Armées lors de leurs dernières auditions parlementaires, contrairement au planeur hypersonique V-MAX [Véhicule Manoeuvrant Expérimental], dont le premier vol devrait avoir lieu d’ici la fin de cette année.

Same for the French military in parliamentary hearings: no mention of that ONERA program, military missions or not.

Pour autant, ce silence autour de cet avion de combat hypervéloce ne voulait pas dire qu’il avait été abandonné… puisque, à l’occasion du salon de l’aéronautique et de l’espace du Bourget, qui vient d’ouvrir ses portes, ce 19 juin, l’ONERA a dévoilé le projet Espadon, avec, à la clé, une maquette de l’appareil.

And now, surprise surprise ! ONERA vehicle and its theoretical military missions might be back -- through that Espadon shown at LE Bourget. Note the "might", this is speculation by the author.

La mise au point d’un avion hypersonique suppose de relever plusieurs défis, que ce soit en matière de propulsion, d’aérodynamique, de matériaux et de commandes de vol. Et si elle constituera, à n’en pas douter, une prouesse technologique, encore faut-il qu’un tel appareil soit pertinent au plan militaire.

Not only that thing won't be easy to build (propulsion, aerodynamic, blah blah blah) , but you may check it has any military value in the first place...

Aussi, les études devront déterminer les cas éventuels d’usage ainsi que les capacités qu’il devra posséder à l’horizon 2050. Et alors peut-être qu’il trouvera sa place au sein du Système de combat aérien du futur [SCAF]…

So, better to determine its exact role and capabilities in the world of 2050 - and whether that role fits inside SCAF global frame...
 
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@flateric words matter. “Avion de combat” is not the same as “avion de chasse” or “chasseur”.
I wonder again if you have read not only text on slide, but what ONERA's Mathurin said to [native speaker] journo.
 
Bottom line: that article is a generic speaking mess. It mixes three things
a) an ONERA 2019 tentative demonstrator
b) tentative military missions
c) hypersonic weaponry by an large, that is cruise missiles and drones

So it's a kind of mess.
 
@flateric words matter. “Avion de combat” is not the same as “avion de chasse” or “chasseur”.
I wonder again if you have read not only text on slide, but what ONERA's Mathurin said to [native speaker] journo.

@flateric: I'd like to help you two, but I can't find the text you quote. Could you please provide a link or a picture of the whole thing ?
 
Bottom line: that article is a generic speaking mess. It mixes three things
a) an ONERA 2019 tentative demonstrator
b) tentative military missions
c) hypersonic weaponry by an large, that is cruise missiles and drones

So it's a kind of mess.
Archibald, do you think the concept name might be a wink and a nod to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_the_Swordfish?

Twitter seemingly has a field day with Blake & Mortimer, but I think ONERA are a bit more serious than that, they probably have the real-world Espadon in mind - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sud-Ouest_Espadon

It was to be the first french fighter jet back in 1948, but grew morbidely obese. Dassault's Ouragan and De Havilland / SNCASE Vampires got there first. Espadon nonethless proved useful until 1954 (crap, 1956 !! so late ??!!) as a demonstrator, and got a symbolical victory at least: it broke the sound barrier in horizontal flight - although it needed a pack of SEPR rockets on the belly to do that.
First three first supersonic french types, 1952-53
- Espadon in horizontal flight, with rockets " It became the first European aircraft to break the sound barrier in level flight on 15 December 1953."
- Mystere II in a dive
- Mystere IVA, horizontal, not rocket.

So Espadon started badly but got some glory in the end. My bet would be "Espadon was first french supersonic aircraft, "New Espadon" will do the same for hypersonics".

Except ONERA didn't build Espadon ! It was SNCASO - think of the difference between NACA Langley and North American Aviation.
 
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@flateric: I'd like to help you two, but I can't find the text you quote. Could you please provide a link or a picture of the whole thing ?
 
More info that clarifies the role of Espadon, from a journalist who interviewed the Onera team:

1) Program goals: The goal is not strictly speaking to build a hypersonic aircraft for the French forces. Rather they want to develop a generic model of hypersonic combat drone in order to improve ONERA's virtualization and simulation capabilities. And even more importantly, it will help model the hypersonic threats that the French forces will have to counter in the future.

Basically, this is pure research which will allow MBDA, Thales and others to develop and improve their detection and interception systems at very high altitude. Though one day it could be used to develop a French hypersonic missile/drone/plane.

2) Technical details
a) The model will be of an aircraft approximately 40 meters long, flying between Mach 5 and Mach 10, at an altitude of approximately 30km.

b) The wings drop down to become stabilizers during cruise flight, much like the XB-70

c) Propulsion would be provided by hybrid turbojet/ramjet engines

d) The model will have a ventral weapons bay allowing the launch of projectiles at hypersonic speed. These will be mainly gliders as they won’t have to accelerate themselves.


Like I said… not a fighter.
 
What is this ?
They called hypersonic fighter with over mach 5 speed up to mach 10

What is role ?
Dog-fight is impossible at speed mach 5 and this design not able to Dog-fight at supersonic speed.
sound more like long range Interceptor like YF-12

why do I have this suspicion that ONERA does a F-111
and try sell to french Ministry of defence a Hypersonic Bomber/ reconnaissance plane as Fighter ?
 
I've changed topic name according to reviewed information. Apologies if I was rude.
 
What is this ?
They called hypersonic fighter with over mach 5 speed up to mach 10

What is role ?
Dog-fight is impossible at speed mach 5 and this design not able to Dog-fight at supersonic speed.
sound more like long range Interceptor like YF-12

why do I have this suspicion that ONERA does a F-111
and try sell to french Ministry of defence a Hypersonic Bomber/ reconnaissance plane as Fighter ?
The F-111 was a "tactical fighter", primarily carrying bombs. Like the F-105, for example.
 

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why do I have this suspicion that ONERA does a F-111
and try sell to french Ministry of defence a Hypersonic Bomber/ reconnaissance plane as Fighter ?
Well, there is the PR angle to be considered: Fighters are for defending your airspace, bombers are for obliterating other countries. Doesn't quite have the same ring to it in the media.
 
why do I have this suspicion that ONERA does a F-111
and try sell to french Ministry of defence a Hypersonic Bomber/ reconnaissance plane as Fighter ?
Well, there is the PR angle to be considered: Fighters are for defending your airspace, bombers are for obliterating other countries. Doesn't quite have the same ring to it in the media.
Same reason the B-26K Counter-Invader got redesignated back to A-26K, so that the USAF could say that there were no "bombers" in Thailand during Vietnam.
 

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