Novorossyisk modernization

Kugelblitz

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claims she was re-engined. Details anybody? (She should have been down to a max speed of 23 knots in 1949 btw)

The site also states her new AA armament (1953-) as 24 twin 37/70 V-11 + 6 single 37/73 70K, while Wikipedia says 6 twin* + 6 single 70K (*that would be 47-V, not 70-K?. I thought both guns were /67). The lighter of the stated armaments could have been replaced by the heavier later? With new enigines and plans for new secondary (130mm) and AA (45mm) guns, I wonder how long they planned to have her in service.
 
An Italian battleship turned Soviet yet sunk by a german mine 10 years after WWII ended.
...
Mussolini and Hitler ghosts must have appreciated the irony - hopefully from Hell worst roasting pit.
 
What can we read in that russian text?
I see two data tables, the second seems what classes the SN had at the end of WW2 including the unfinished Stalingrad but the first table shows what fast capital ships the neighbouring countries had? Conte di Cavour, Dunkerque and Renown (Seems like they disregarded the IJN? )
 
What can we read in that russian text?
I see two data tables, the second seems what classes the SN had at the end of WW2 including the unfinished Stalingrad but the first table shows what fast capital ships the neighbouring countries had? Conte di Cavour, Dunkerque and Renown (Seems like they disregarded the IJN? )
As the first table compare the Conte di Cavour with the direct match in foreign navies enemy of Italy and the second with the other contemporary soviet capital ships, it seems the table have the objective to show the metrics to evaluate the rationality for the Italian navy to modernize the battleship and for the Soviet Navy to maintain it in service well into the '50s
 
Frustratingly, I've been unable to find my copy of the Russian source. there was an excellent article titled something like "history of captured ships in soviet service" or something along those lines which listed the plans for the refit.
 
What can we read in that russian text?
I see two data tables, the second seems what classes the SN had at the end of WW2 including the unfinished Stalingrad but the first table shows what fast capital ships the neighbouring countries had? Conte di Cavour, Dunkerque and Renown (Seems like they disregarded the IJN? )
I can't read Russian at all,only look the data tables,I think maybe no much change on AA armament
The Russians use their own twin 37 replace Italian twin 37,and use single 37 replace twin 13.2,remove old twin 100

There are still a few pages of old dreadnought

04-3389433-img630b.jpg 04-3389433-img631.jpg
 
The Dunkerques were toasts - at the bottom of Toulon harbor since late 1942, unfortunately...
 
The Dunkerques were toasts - at the bottom of Toulon harbor since late 1942, unfortunately...
Actually no Dunkerque remained in her dry dock until finally dismantled in the mid 1950's.
Strasbourg was sunk at the Bay of Lazaret in April of 1944 but refloated later in October that year and again finally scrapped in the mid 1950's.
 
"Frustratingly, I've been unable to find my copy of the Russian source. there was an excellent article titled something like "history of captured ships in soviet service" or something along those lines which listed the plans for the refit."

Do post if you find it. There isn't much light on those ships.

I wonder if they didn't have a surplus Sverdlov class machinery lying around by 1953 anyways, but changing the machinery is a big operation and one would think it would have been well enough known to show up in post 1990 books if it ever happened.
 
"Frustratingly, I've been unable to find my copy of the Russian source. there was an excellent article titled something like "history of captured ships in soviet service" or something along those lines which listed the plans for the refit."
Sad to hear you can't find your source.

In the meantime, I have a copy of "Soviet Battleships 1933-1957 by Wayne Scarpaci". The Novorossisk is detailed from page 64 to 68. I'll ad some info from this source soon.

As I see, the book is still available at Amazon Spain. A really beautiful book for unbuilt and rare projects enthusiasts, highly recommended

Which sounds promising is "Russian and Soviet Battleships by Stephen McLaughlin"...although a considerable price.
 
According to Bagnasco & de Toro, either in their Storia Militare 'Dossier' from last year or the recent book referenced above;

Due to the poor material condition that the ex-Giulio Cesare, Z 11, once commissioned into the VMF, Novorossiysk was rather badly in need of work due to the state of disrepair she had been handed over in - she had been in a state of neglect since the end of the war, since the Italians hardly had the funds or yard space to conduct the needed maintenance on her in the years immediately after the war, and once her fate became apparent it was also hard to motivate anyone to do their job properly.

As such, from 1949 on, she had work done on her fairly frequently, including;
  • 12 May to 18 June 1949
  • July 1950
  • 29 April to 22 June 1951
  • October 1951
  • June 1952
  • 1953
But, after a series of machinery breakdowns, the Soviets decided to overhaul the machinery outright. The boilers were entirely overhauled, and the reduction gearing of the ships was replaced by new Karkov-types of, obviously, Soviet manufacture. Though, I'd note, this is quite different than the turbines being replaced entirely. Claimed output after this was 93,000 shp, though I have to admit I am somewhat dubious of this being an actual increase in output power, since simply replacing the reduction gearing should not have increased the output power almost a quarter (from 75,000 shp to 93,000 shp). In fact, given the figure of 93,000 shp, I suspect that the Soviets/secondary sources since then have simply reported her 'new' output as the full maximum power, rather than the more typical full normal power. Either way, her machinery would have been largely in 'near-new' condition, or about as close to that as you can reasonably get with what was by that point about 15-year-old boilers and machinery.

In this same refit, the diesel generators, non-functional by the time the ship was handed over, was replaced, and the same went for many of the auxiliary systems. The light anti-aircraft armament (Breda 37/54 and 20/65) was entirely stripped from the ship in the same refit, though how exactly they were replaced seems to be something various sources disagree on. Bagnasco & de Toro state they were replaced by twelve twin 37/67 water-cooled systems and six single air-cooled systems, though Stephen McLaughlin in his book Russian and Soviet Battleships gives six twin mountings (B-11) and six singles (70-K). The main battery fire control systems were also replaced.

This wasn't her last refit, however, and she would have to more period of work done before her loss;
  • November 1954
  • 13 February to 29 March 1955
As far as ship life was concerned - shortly before her loss in 1955, an examination of her hull found that it would be sound for service for another 10-15 years (so, theoretically 1965-1970). That being said, the Soviets had been hoping to use her as a training ship so that they'd have crew ready for use on the Projekt 82 Stalingrad-class 'heavy cruisers' - the first member of the class had been laid down at the end of 1951, and, due to the delays in construction, would have been launched in the spring of 1954 had it not been for Stalin's death. Stalin's death in March 1953 allowed for the navy to cancel the whole large cruiser program and allowed the re-focusing of the navy on more practical matters. In light of this, it is not clear how much longer Novorossiysk could have reasonably been expected to survive in Soviet service - she was certainly a rather expensive method of maintaining a training ship in a navy that wasn't going to be operating anything larger than a light cruiser for a very long time, and the VMF really wasn't interested in big guns anymore.

@Kingpin6100 has a generally better knowledge of Soviet modernization plans for her than me, and might have a better idea how long they were planning on keeping her around in a post-Stalin USSR.
 
From Wayne Scarpaci book

In Nov 1943 the USSR requested transfer of one third of the Italian Fleet (interned at Malta since the armistice signed in Sept 1943) as war reparations. Ships should be transferred to Murmansk. Western powers informed that Italian ship were fitted only for operations in the Mediterranean Sea and offered the loan of BB HMS Royal Sovereign instead.

At the end of WWII, both Soviets and Italians demanded the surviving most capable Littorio class BB still available but those ended in US (Italia) and British (Veneto) hands. Both ships sailed to Italy again to be scrapped in 1948. Italia received Doria and Duilio while Cesare was assigned to the URSS.

I wonder how long they planned to have her in service.

Italian Navy operated their BB until 1953 as fleet flagships.

Cesare envisaged role was to act as a naval power status symbol and school ship where training the future crews of the future Project 82 battlecruisers. Stalingrad, first in their four ship class, was scheduled to be launched by November 1953.

Novorossisk became operational in July 1949

In October 1955, she had just completed the last of three major modernization and was ready to achieve full IOC in 6 weeks when it was destroyed by a German mine still left from WWII next to the BB homeport in Sevastopol. 608 crewmen lost.

claims she was re-engined. Details anybody?
She received new Soviet manufactured turbines during te modernization works. Also received new fire control and radar systems. The light AA battery was upgraded but a proposal to reequip with 12" Soviet guns was rejected. Factory provision for ammunition for its Italian guns was made until 1955.
 
From Wayne Scarpaci book

In Nov 1943 the USSR requested transfer of one third of the Italian Fleet (interned at Malta since the armistice signed in Sept 1943) as war reparations. Ships should be transferred to Murmansk. Western powers informed that Italian ship were fitted only for operations in the Mediterranean Sea and offered the loan of BB HMS Royal Sovereign instead.

At the end of WWII, both Soviets and Italians demanded the surviving most capable Littorio class BB still available but those ended in US (Italia) and British (Veneto) hands. Both ships sailed to Italy again to be scrapped in 1948. Italia received Doria and Duilio while Cesare was assigned to the URSS.

The position was not quite as you noted. The true position was laid out in a Memo by the First Lord of the Admiralty to the British Cabinet in July 1945 which is attached.

The Russian "demand" (not request) was for 1 battleship, 1 cruiser, 8 DD and 4 SS and was made in Oct 1943 in Moscow and agreed at Tehran. FDR muddied the waters by referring to "one third" of the Italian Fleet in a press conference when in fact the Russian claim amounted to less than 25%. The Littorios were never considered as part of the deal because Britain had an eye on them for potential use in the Pacific or post-war.

The reason for substituting British ships for the Italian ships was to keep Italy onside. In the words of the memo:-

1628338818996.png
 

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  • CAB-66-67-24.pdf
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The reason for substituting British ships for the Italian ships was to keep Italy onside.
As far as I know, there was also another reason. Royal Navy by 1944 started to feel shortage of manpower. There weren't enough trained sailors and officers. Three out of four remaining "Revenge"-class battleships were reduced to reserve in 1943, and from practical point of view, they were just sitting here doing nothing, while Soviet Navy could put them to some use.
 
The position was not quite as you noted. The true position was laid out in a Memo by the First Lord of the Admiralty to the British Cabinet in July 1945 which is attached.
Many thanks for that excellent post. Very interesting.
 

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