Northrop / McDonnell Douglas ATF - YF-23 and EMD F-23

[sferrin]

"If everybody involved would be more realistic and didn't lie about risk, technical difficulty and cost, we wouldn't have these problems," said Thomas P. Christie, a retired official who spent nearly 50 years working in Pentagon acquisitions. "We jump into these decisions, then get surprised about the outcome."

Sure, because the bean counters would say, "Whoa, don't buy it." Can't have problems with a program if you don't buy it. Of course you'll never make advancements without encountering obstacles so one can see where that puts us pretty easily.

 

[AeroFranz]

The problem is that the AF does not have design engineers in acquisition anymore - at any rate not any that can double-check the figures presented by industry and call bull where necessary. Truth to be told it's hard to be well-versed on all aspects of complex weapons systems. These are no longer your grampa's airplanes, so you need to have specialists in all the disciplines double check figures.

At least that's been my first hand experience. This is harmful because i have seen competitors win contracts by downplaying risk, only to have the program get cancelled after Phase I because the proposed approach would not work. Eventually the proof is in the pudding, not in the powerpoint.


If bean counters are not happy with realistic cost numbers proposed by all the contenders, then they should either revise their funding, or cancel the competition. Any other alternative is a waste of tax payer money.

 

[bring_it_on]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpj1uoAkURY

 

[lantinian]

Thank You Bring_it_on.
Haven't see that version yet and it maybe the best visual presentation of YF-23 in flight.

I also recommend avert body here to subscribe to your YouTube channel and check out the other videos you have uploaded.

 

[Sundog]

The problem is that the AF does not have design engineers in acquisition anymore - at any rate not any that can double-check the figures presented by industry and call bull where necessary. Truth to be told it's hard to be well-versed on all aspects of complex weapons systems. These are no longer your grampa's airplanes, so you need to have specialists in all the disciplines double check figures.

At least that's been my first hand experience. This is harmful because i have seen competitors win contracts by downplaying risk, only to have the program get cancelled after Phase I because the proposed approach would not work. Eventually the proof is in the pudding, not in the powerpoint.


If bean counters are not happy with realistic cost numbers proposed by all the contenders, then they should either revise their funding, or cancel the competition. Any other alternative is a waste of tax payer money.

I couldn't agree more. In fact with regard to the ATF competition, I wish we had access to all of the original submissions. We're always told the McDonnell Douglas submission was too heavy, but I've always heard they had an excellent weights group. As a result, I've often wondered if it was really too heavy or just too accurate?

 

[bring_it_on]

 

[SpudmanWP]

(0:15) Vertical climb after takeoff to 100k feet "like a rocket"

 

[sferrin]

(0:15) Vertical climb after takeoff to 100k feet "like a rocket"

I hope somebody eventually posts the clip of Paul Metz talking about the F-22A's speed. "the top speed is classified but it'll do 1600 mph". :'( I wonder if he'll ever be able to give a nothing-held-back tell all of how the YF-23 and F-22A compare.

 

[bring_it_on]

Does that video clip exist??

 

[sferrin]

Does that video clip exist??

Yes, on one of the plethora of aviation videos from Discovery/TLC/History Channel/ etc. etc. back in the early '00s.

 

[bring_it_on]

I'll look it up

 

[sferrin]

I'll look it up

Good luck. I spent several hours one day trying to run it down from best recollection with no luck. I "acquired" every documentary I could put my hands on and it wasn't in any of them. Some were not available from any source, not from Amazon, not from the network (TLC/Discovery/etc.), so I couldn't check those.

 

[flanker]

I know for sure that the 1600mph quote atleast once came from an text interview. Sure you are not mixing things up?

 

[sferrin]

I know for sure that the 1600mph quote atleast once came from an text interview. Sure you are not mixing things up?

Positive it was in the show. Could be the text interview was from the program. Still remember the emphasis he put on, "I mean it's really fast".

 

[bring_it_on]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-v2OLrYCFw

 

[Steve Pace]

What a bird! -SP

 

[Ogami musashi]

I'm not sure this one has been already posted but it has two interesting graphs: the reasons behind supercruise and stealth combination and the max speed and max G achieved by the YF-23

 

[Ogami musashi]

This one makes reference to the vertical climb by the YF-23 (at 0:30)

 

[pedrospe]

They are some great and unique videos,it is a pity that the image quality isn't the best,never the less is always good to see this superb aircraft flying,thanks a lot for this.


best regards


Pedro

 

[Stargazer]

I hope somebody eventually posts the clip of Paul Metz talking about the F-22A's speed. "the top speed is classified but it'll do 1600 mph".

You mean the F-23 here?

 

[sferrin]

I hope somebody eventually posts the clip of Paul Metz talking about the F-22A's speed. "the top speed is classified but it'll do 1600 mph".

You mean the F-23 here?

No.

 

[flanker]

We badly, badly, need a couple of Secretproject representatives for this event;

http://www.wmof.com/upcomingevents.pdf

Please, hope someone could show up and ask some good questions and take pics etc. (suggest a few in here?)

 

[Ian33]

I hope somebody eventually posts the clip of Paul Metz talking about the F-22A's speed. "the top speed is classified but it'll do 1600 mph".

You mean the F-23 here?

No.

I remember seeing that figure mentioned but it melted the skins so it had to be reigned in.

 

[Sundog]

We badly, badly, need a couple of Secretproject representatives for this event;

http://www.wmof.com/upcomingevents.pdf

Please, hope someone could show up and ask some good questions and take pics etc. (suggest a few in here?)

While I doubt they can tell us much about the YF-23's actual performance, I would love to be at that talk. I would actually ask them if the simulators were "upgraded," for lack of a better term, to simulate the production F-23's performance and if they also had one for the NATF and how they performed.

 

[aim9xray]

FWIW, the Peninsula Seniors organization records the monthly lectures at the Western Museum of Flight and uploads them (among others) to YouTube on their channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfuy6jW-23cUtB9CoxVm6y-0Gn-LxQJOw. Video upload ranges from one to two months after the event.

 

[flanker]

Oh nice, thanks for the heads up! Still hope some Secretproject suspects are able to show up and ask relevant questions.

 

[Ogami musashi]

devian art user tommow created a F-23A mesh. Textures are maybe a little bit poor but geometry seems pretty stop on.


http://tommow.deviantart.com/

 

[bring_it_on]

Official Northrop Image of the FB-23 -

 

[flateric]

Official Northrop Image of the FB-23 -

 

[bring_it_on]

FWIW, the Peninsula Seniors organization records the monthly lectures at the Western Museum of Flight and uploads them (among others) to YouTube on their channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfuy6jW-23cUtB9CoxVm6y-0Gn-LxQJOw. Video upload ranges from one to two months after the event.

They have some very very interesting videos..The F-14 and F-15 talks were great. Hopefully they would upload the YF23 one soon after the event

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ6KJEv309w

 

[bring_it_on]

A Tailless YF23 with Yaw-Vectoring

https://www.scribd.com/doc/273847968/Fighter-Agility-Aircraft?secret_password=IERNzh0m6mLxOPhPOCx7

 

[bring_it_on]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5CKECtCwCQ

 

[Ogami musashi]

Guys, I've mailed the WMOF about the YF-23 reunion this saturday asking them if it would be possible for us to forward one or two questions for paul metz and jim sanberg since it seems no one can attend and they kindly accepted.


So i offer you this: let's ask two questions, one on the YF-23 and one on the F-23A. We have to find two questions that are sufficiently large to bring as much information as possible. Additionnal questions are maybe possible but let's try and focus on the two ones.


Only one day left so please hurry! (If not i'll chose for you)

 

[BillRo]

I am planning on going - send me questions.

 

[Ogami musashi]

I think the person i contacted will see Paul and Jim on friday so maybe she'll ask the questions then. If you are going there on saturday (great!) maybe we can have more questions. So it is better if we gather the questions here so as not ask the same twice

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

What was your opinion of the YF-23 prototypes' maneuverability?

 

[sferrin]

"F-22 or F-23?"

 

[flanker]

Maybe these have been answered before, but anyway;

1 - Did either PAV-1 or -2 go supersonic with open weaponsbays or was that done always subsonic? Either break the soundbarrier with open bays or open them while being supersonic.
2 - It has been suggested that USAF was worried about the single bay and the rack system on YF-23 (jamming), was that the reason why F-23 had two weaponsbays? Or was that just a natural design progression not necessarily tied to USAF?
3 - PAV-2, faster than 1700mph top speed? (i know, veeeeeeeeeeeeery unlikely question to be answered, but what the heck)
4 - In your opinion, did the canceled NATF weigh in a lot on the decision to go with F-22 over F-23?

 

[bring_it_on]

What was your opinion of the YF-23 prototypes' maneuverability?

And also, would having TV factored into the design would have helped in any way.

 

[quellish]

it seems no one can attend

I heard there will be punch and pie, so...