North American P-500 (SC-46) lightweight fighter proposal

[JC Carbonel]

comes from a Japanese article about the P-51 ! Could it be an early pre-P51 proposal for the French purchasing comission ?

JCC

 

[lark]

This is a light weight fighter concept designed by Edgar Schmued
of North American in the late 1930's.
Sometimes it is mentioned in relation to the Mustang.
I never have found a N.A. design number for it.

 

[JC Carbonel]

thank you . the wings and tail are very Mustang-ish but the whole machine does not seem much bigger than a Caudron 714 . Any 3-views , dimensions etc... around ?

JCC

 

[elmayerle]

Well, just as a preliminary estimate, consider a cross between the XAT-6E and either the Boomerang or the NA-50/P-64. Say the P-64's dimensions with the squared-off wingtips and engine installation of the XAT-6E?

 

[frank]

Maybe the fuselage, but the tail doesn't look like the P-64/AT-6 & the wings definitely don't have the center section arrangement of those either.

Well, just as a preliminary estimate, consider a cross between the XAT-6E and either the Boomerang or the NA-50/P-64. Say the P-64's dimensions with the squared-off wingtips and engine installation of the XAT-6E?

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

Well, just as a preliminary estimate, consider a cross between the XAT-6E and either the Boomerang or the NA-50/P-64. Say the P-64's dimensions with the squared-off wingtips and engine installation of the XAT-6E?

With a dash of NA-35.

 

[elmayerle]

Maybe the fuselage, but the tail doesn't look like the P-64/AT-6 & the wings definitely don't have the center section arrangement of those either.

Well, just as a preliminary estimate, consider a cross between the XAT-6E and either the Boomerang or the NA-50/P-64. Say the P-64's dimensions with the squared-off wingtips and engine installation of the XAT-6E?

Actually, the tail looks similar to the Mustang's tail. I suspect Edgar Schmued may have been working with some of the concepts well before the start of the Mustang's genesis. Besides, the tail as shown, like the Mustang's tail, is quite adapted for mass production, more so than the rounded vertical tail of other NAA designs.

 

[Nico]

My memory is no longer sharp as in past time... re-reading this post, I remember that I read something about a "pre-Mustang" proposal about some modifications to P-40 in case of license production by NAA but I was unable to trace it on the pages of this blog. Perhaps I read that matter on another forum or was a false memory?
Nico

 

[royabulgaf]

To the extent it is more than a notional design, it seems more in the jockey fighter class. North American did play around with an inline aircooled engine in the 700 hp range. This could be a fighter designed around it.

It could even have been based on the T-6 to some degree. In the 30s, Vultee, Seversky, and NA all played around with the idea of modular aircraft, and by mixing and matching various components at the factory one could make a primary trainer, advanced trainer, attack aircraft, or fighter.

 

[Tophe]

In the book "Mustang designer" by Ray Wagner (Orion Books 1990), page 52, the same picture has the caption: "Edgar Schmued's first light fighter design (souce NAA)". And the text page 51 says: "Among the ideas he had considered offering France was a light low-wing monoplane with a Ranger SGV-770, a 525hp air-cooled, inverted in-line engine. Four wing guns were the suggested armament for this proposal, which would be quickly replaced by a more powerful design."
The small engine Ranger V-770 was used on other light fighters: XP-77, XP-48 and other planes (1 engine Seamew, Vibor, OSE-1, YO-50, XSO2U, 2 engines Gunner, T.214D, SIAI 102, FK 49)

 

[Stargazer]

Makes you wonder if NAA didn't simply sell that early design to Edo...

 

[Steve Pace]

Makes you wonder if NAA didn't simply sell that early design to Edo...

Lots of similiarities...

 

[mz]

If you put an inverted linear piston engine (as opposed to a vee) on the nose, most things start looking like Caudrons very quickly...
EDIT:Oh, I realize now it had a vee engine.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


in early 1940s,North American and its designer Edgar Schmued created a lightweight
fighter project,powered by one Allison V-1710 engine,who know more about it ?.

 

[Vladimir]

Hi, hesham

Edgar Schmued -Mustang designer, maby this book help: https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=56hqBgAAQBAJ&pg=PT190&lpg=PT190&dq=Edgar+Schmued+created+a+lightweight+fighter&source=bl&ots=qNt8DalIZR&sig=ffUdsqNazI5TRodMfx7x63A316k&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBGoVChMIrY_w7_DiyAIVJXVyCh1ctADC#v=onepage&q=Edgar%20Schmued%20created%20a%20lightweight%20fighter&f=false

 

[hesham]

Thank you Vladimir,


but it was anther fighter.

 

[Steve Pace]

It's the NA-105, XP-51J you're looking for - two were built with V-1710-119 engines. -SP

 

[hesham]

It's the NA-105, XP-51J you're looking for - two were built with V-1710-119 engines. -SP

My dear Steve,


it was looks like Bell XP-77,and not related to P-51.

 

[Steve Pace]

It's the NA-105, XP-51J you're looking for - two were built with V-1710-119 engines. -SP

My dear Steve,


it was looks like Bell XP-77,and not related to P-51.

The XP-51J was designed and built as a lightweight fighter as were the NA-105 XP-51F and XP-51G airplanes and finally the P-51H production airplane. -SP

 

[hesham]

Hi,

 

[Steve Pace]

Hi,

New one on me - I can't help on it. -SP

 

[Stargazer]

We've discussed this project before, in another topic. I'm surprised you have forgotten, hesham and Steve!

Here it is again.

 

[Vladimir]

Dear hesham it's also unknown for me too...

 

[Vladimir]

maby this: XP-77 futher development

 

[Steve Pace]

We've discussed this project before, in another topic. I'm surprised you have forgotten, hesham and Steve!

Here it is again.

I guess I'm getting senile. -SP

 

[Stargazer]

maby this: XP-77 futher development

No Vladimir, we're discussing a North American design, not Bell! I've already answered and provided a picture (three posts above).

 

[Arjen]

A quick search resulted in this, the old topic mentioned before.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1308.msg96675.html#msg96675
May I suggest merging topics?
<edit> Thanks!

 

[hesham]

Good memory my dears Skyblazer and Arjen,thanks.

 

[sienar]

"In the wake of the NA-53 project retirement, a decision was made to respond to comments indicating that France and Britain were leaning towards a lightweight fighter. This information evolved into Edgar Schmued’s design P-500 which became known as Shop Charge SC-46. Funding for the SC-46 program had been approved by the GM Board of Directors in response to a request from Kindelberger with the support of board members Breech and DuPont.

A first thought of reviving the NA-53, since its production was cancelled earlier in the year, was short lived in favor of proceeding with the Ranger powered SC-46 as a stopgap fighter with potential sales as a fighter-trainer for export. This seemed more plausible as the Allison powered pursuit, P-509, moved forward in a cloak of secrecy. The General Order for the SC-46 was issued on December 18, 1939. In order to support production of the SC-46 with limited delays, the Ranger Engine Company had been approached by NAA to open a plant two miles to the north of the NAA location at Mines Field. With one strike against them with the failure of the French or British to consider the NA-53 design beneficial, Edgar Schmued’s rough proposal drawings for the SC-46 design were handed over to Al Algier, who was responsible for putting them into the correct NAA format. Herein lay the secret as to why so few of Edgar Schmued’s drawings survived carrying his name. Al Algier would erase Ed Schmued’s information in the lower right corner of the drawing and add the proper format title block and border,
bring the line weights up to standard and then sign off the drawing as the preparer in the “Drawn By” block.

By January 23, 1940, the P-500 Light Weight Fighter Design was ready for presentation to the British and the French. Kindelberger and Atwood traveled to New York and met with representatives of the British Air Ministry, with the purpose of selling them on the P-500 design. The presentation was a dismal failure and ended with the British insisting that NAA build the P-40 under license from Curtiss. Atwood, quite familiar with the P-509 design that was fermenting back at the plant, requested another meeting on February 6 th in which he sketched out the general arrangement of the P-509 Allison engine pursuit. However, without a proper proposal, the effort was futile and the British pressed forward with their demand that NAA build the P-40. At this point, Kindelberger returned to the factory in California, leaving Atwood to continue working with the British on a favorable solution to the problem."

from; https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56c78acd0442626b2590f5ea/t/590591d02994ca1b11d96680/1493537249560/2009-2_Summer.pdf

 

[cluttonfred]

Like many people, I have alway found the lightweight fighter concept fascinating even if it was rarely if ever very successful in practice. Does anyone know what Ranger engine was intended to be used in the P-500 and what sort of performance was expected?

From the cutaway it looks like the proposed armament was 2 x .30 cal and 2 x .50 cal machine guns. If one of our "what if" artists is looking for a project, how about a production P-500 in British or French colors with the .50 cal machine guns replaced with early WWII 20 mm cannons (with faired bulges for the magazines) and the .30 cal guns replaced with appropriate .303 British or 7.5 mm French machine guns? ;-)

 

[Hood]

Not sure you would fit a 20mm cannon in that wing?

I think that even with hindsight the British were right to stick to their guns and rejected the light fighter concept.
The French had some experience with light fighters like the Caudron C.710 series so might have been more willing to investigate this concept but its hard to see any advantages this had over the Caudron.

 

[sienar]

Like many people, I have alway found the lightweight fighter concept fascinating even if it was rarely if ever very successful in practice. Does anyone know what Ranger engine was intended to be used in the P-500 and what sort of performance was expected?

From the cutaway it looks like the proposed armament was 2 x .30 cal and 2 x .50 cal machine guns. If one of our "what if" artists is looking for a project, how about a production P-500 in British or French colors with the .50 cal machine guns replaced with early WWII 20 mm cannons (with faired bulges for the magazines) and the .30 cal guns replaced with appropriate .303 British or 7.5 mm French machine guns? ;-)

Its almost certainly the V-770.

 

[cluttonfred]

The early fixed-gear Caudron racer-fighters actually had a pair of 20mm cannon as their armament, and it was mocked up with bulged fairings for the drum magazines for the later retractable-gear versions. In the end the C.714s used briefly in combat were equipped with just 4 x 7.5mm machine guns. I think they would have been better off with the 20mm cannon in the bomber interceptor role, which is the role that made the most sense.

Not sure you would fit a 20mm cannon in that wing?

 

[Apophenia]

... the C.714s used briefly in combat were equipped with just 4 x 7.5mm machine guns...

Those guns were mounted in trays beneath the wings ... another option for a cannon-armed P-500.

As for the P-500's powerplant, my bet would be for the Ranger XV-770-9 (as in Bell's Tri-4) with its two-speed Szydlowski-Planiol supercharger.

 

[hesham]

As for the P-500's powerplant, my bet would be for the Ranger XV-770-9 (as in Bell's Tri-4) with its two-speed Szydlowski-Planiol supercharger.

Yes it was for the Specification.

 

[PabloSniper]

I find this concept of a small fighter interesting.

 

[Pioneer]

"In the wake of the NA-53 project retirement, a decision was made to respond to comments indicating that France and Britain were leaning towards a lightweight fighter. This information evolved into Edgar Schmued’s design P-500 which became known as Shop Charge SC-46. Funding for the SC-46 program had been approved by the GM Board of Directors in response to a request from Kindelberger with the support of board members Breech and DuPont.

A first thought of reviving the NA-53, since its production was cancelled earlier in the year, was short lived in favor of proceeding with the Ranger powered SC-46 as a stopgap fighter with potential sales as a fighter-trainer for export. This seemed more plausible as the Allison powered pursuit, P-509, moved forward in a cloak of secrecy. The General Order for the SC-46 was issued on December 18, 1939. In order to support production of the SC-46 with limited delays, the Ranger Engine Company had been approached by NAA to open a plant two miles to the north of the NAA location at Mines Field. With one strike against them with the failure of the French or British to consider the NA-53 design beneficial, Edgar Schmued’s rough proposal drawings for the SC-46 design were handed over to Al Algier, who was responsible for putting them into the correct NAA format. Herein lay the secret as to why so few of Edgar Schmued’s drawings survived carrying his name. Al Algier would erase Ed Schmued’s information in the lower right corner of the drawing and add the proper format title block and border,
bring the line weights up to standard and then sign off the drawing as the preparer in the “Drawn By” block.

By January 23, 1940, the P-500 Light Weight Fighter Design was ready for presentation to the British and the French. Kindelberger and Atwood traveled to New York and met with representatives of the British Air Ministry, with the purpose of selling them on the P-500 design. The presentation was a dismal failure and ended with the British insisting that NAA build the P-40 under license from Curtiss. Atwood, quite familiar with the P-509 design that was fermenting back at the plant, requested another meeting on February 6 th in which he sketched out the general arrangement of the P-509 Allison engine pursuit. However, without a proper proposal, the effort was futile and the British pressed forward with their demand that NAA build the P-40. At this point, Kindelberger returned to the factory in California, leaving Atwood to continue working with the British on a favorable solution to the problem."

from; https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...4ca1b11d96680/1493537249560/2009-2_Summer.pdf

Sorry, very very late to this game (SC-46/P-500 design).....in fact, I never ever heard of it until I came across this thread!
Thanks sienar for the information!!

Regards
Pioneer