Next Generation Missile (NGM), ex - Joint Dual Role Air Dominance Missile (JDRADM)

[Abraham Gubler]

JDRADM is not to repace AIM-120 and AIM-9X, but rather AIM-120 and AGM-88. Therefore, it wouldn't have to fit into the side bays of the F-22, it would be carried where AIM-120 is now.

To calrify the JDRADM won't replace the AIM-9X for the F-22 (side bay issues) but it will replace it for the F-35 and the F/A-18E/F. Since in the JDRADM's service timeframe (>2020) that is a difference of 100 aircraft to 2,000 to 3,000 aircraft (not counting remaining F-15 and F-16 AIM-9X users) its easy to imagine a time when the F-22 is insignificant to these issues. Capability wise JDRADM will be able to perform the WVR dogfight mission. At least that's the plan to date...

 

[SpudmanWP]

I dug this up on the JDRADM development:

These represent the different technologies that comprise the JDRADM:
MR ROKM is the warhead tech
SITES is the seeker
DRADM-T is propulsion and airframe tech

2010 will be an interesting year for JDRADM tech.

My thoughts on how to extend the range... Restartable rocket motors and higher rocket energetics. I liked GD's AIM-152 idea of a two stage missile. This way the missile could take a long range, lofting profile and still have an active TVC rocket for the endgame engagement. Also, the smaller 2nd stage was lighter and could pull higher G's than the missile as a whole. The second benefit of a 2 stage missile is that for a 9X replacement, a smaller 1st stage booster can be installed. On the other end of the scale, a larger booster could be added for a VERY long range shot. The largest benefit is that they would all use the same 2nd stage, therefore keeping costs down.

Here is Boeing's only publicly released JDRADM image.

Notice the very small tail fins. Obviously they are thinking TVC. The question is... will it be under active rocket thrust at the end of a long range shot.

 

[F-14D]

On the other hand, two stages does add complexity. You could get the range and energy at the ends of the envelope with a rocket ramjet as well, although other factors come into play here. Maybe a JDRAM thread should be started. Although with the things we've seen about where the DoD direction might go, JDRADM may always remain just be a picture.

 

[SpudmanWP]

The Navy used a two stage system very successfully (SM series of missiles), and has for many years.

A ramjet combo has it's own set of problems, which is why the Meteor is STILL not in operation.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Bear in mind that GD’s A3M could be called a three stage missile (or more accurately three phases). Stage 1 is the booster to provide velocity and is then jettisoned (like SM-1ER, SM-2 Block IV, SM-3, SM-6, etc) the missile’s sustainer motor is then fired up to cruise to the target. At some point it is turned off to allow the missile to coast to target and then fired up again for terminal manoeuvre energy.

I think this is what Spudman is suggesting may be part of JDRADM’s capability. The ability to operate the motor based on the mission. For WVR this could be burn until kill, for ARM burn and then coast to kill and for BVR burn until coast and then re-burn for kill (obviously for those targets at the outside edge of the engagement range).

 

[SpudmanWP]

Abraham Gubler got it right.

 

[quellish]

Wish I had more warning on this. Boeing had a trailer with promotional stuff at the Edwards open house, and there was a JDRADM picture in there.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Here's some more JDRADM images.

 

[F-14D]

Wish I had more warning on this. Boeing had a trailer with promotional stuff at the Edwards open house, and there was a JDRADM picture in there.

So do I. I was there the day before when they were setting up the show and didn't see that.

 

[F-14D]

The Navy used a two stage system very successfully (SM series of missiles), and has for many years.

A ramjet combo has it's own set of problems, which is why the Meteor is STILL not in operation.

Wasn't trying to force ramjet down anyone's throat. BTW, I suspect it would not be a rocket-ramjet combo, but rather an integral rocket/ramjet. The Soviets/Russians have known how to do that for decades. Meteor is not in operation not because it's a ramjet but because it's subject to the vagaries that are universal to posturing politicians. They're always in favor of a newer more advanced capability as long as someone else has done it before and it's in the future where you don't actually have to come up with the bucks for it. Meteor has been moved further and further back because it's approaching the point where the serious funding is coming due, so the can is being repeatedly kicked down the road. This is not meant as a slam at Europe. After all, this was basically the US method of weapons development for most of the '90s (as well as the late '70s).

The complexity issue with multi-stage missiles I referred to was only referring to air launched. The SM series as a multi-stage missile was surface launched. The air-launched Standard missiles that were used in the anti-radiation role for a while dispensed with the booster. Similarly, air-launched Harpoon and air-launched Tomahawk, before it was canceled (some say partly due to Air Force lobbying), both dispensed with their booster stages.

I don't know if they've got to the point yet where they have definitively decided the propulsion method for JDRADM, many pictures seem to be notional. Could be start/stop rocket, integral rocket/ramjet or something else entirely. If I had had the opportunity to talk to Boeing this weekend I sure would have asked (did get to talk to F-35 folks, though). I just hope JDRADM actually sees the light of day. Again, I suspect detailed discussion of this weapon deserves its own thread.

 

[SpudmanWP]

Well, Boeing is 2.5 years into a planned 4 year development cycle for the DRADM-T portion of the JDRADM development.

DRADM-T focuses on the missile's propulsion and control systems.

http://www.mil-embedded.com/news/Contracts/6638

According to the chart in post 113 we should see a JDRADM Tech Demo from Boeing sometime in later 2009 or early 2010.

 

[F-14D]

At my own suggestion, I'd like to start this topic (and maybe have some of the last posts from A/FX on JDRADM copied here?). I didn't put under "Missiles", because hopefully JDRADM won't become an "Unbuilt Project".

MODIFIED

I'd like to open with a question: Unless I've been misreading, there have been a number of posts stating that JDRADM will be replacing both AIM-120 and AIM-9X. Personally, I've always understood that it would replace AIM-120, offering greater range, agility and expanded no-escape zone, and AGM-88. Doing some web and printed document research, I've been unable to find much beyond speculation regarding AIM-9X replacement. The Air Force Research Lab slide "JDRADM Operational Vision" from the A/FX thread, http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2150.0;attach=83525;image mentions all-aspect and helmet cueing/displays, but that would be a capability useful not just for AIM-9X roles, so that's not definitive Now, AIM-9X is just now coming into full deployment, and there are still some important programs for which AIM-9X integration is still under development (F-35, AH-1Z. etc.). Since production of JDRADM is supposed to start in 2017, assuming it actually gets funded in the upcoming climate, that seems awful close to be developing a whole new successor, not to mention that JDRADM will be considerably larger (if nothing else to get large enough warhead on it for its air-to-ground role).

So my question is, where are there references that JDRADM is specifically intended to replace AIM-9X as well?

 

[SpudmanWP]

For A2G it does not have to get larger. One of the technologies in it's development is a focused warhead. This would allow it to be more effective in it's role.

As I have posted before, 2010 will be the big year in JDRADM info.

 

[F-14D]

For A2G it does not have to get larger. One of the technologies in it's development is a focused warhead. This would allow it to be more effective in it's role.

As I have posted before, 2010 will be the big year in JDRADM info.

2010 will also be a big hurdle in seeing whether or not the program is going to continue. The next one, of course when it'll be time for production money to come forth, the traditional point where politicians' enthusiastic and heartfelt support tends to evaporate.

Focused warhead or not, wouldn't the warhead have to be larger than that of AIM-9X, ASRAAM, etc. simply because you're hitting a "harder" target?

 

[SpudmanWP]

I was looking around for any new JDRADM info and I came across Boeing's JDRADM backgrounder document.

http://www.boeing.com/bds/mediakit/2010/afa/pdf/bkgd_jdradm_ 0210.pdf

Not much new here until I zoomed into the picture. It is there that I noticed a small TVC jet exiting from the side of the motor.

 

[Trident]

Well spotted! As is so often the case however, this solution is not entirely new:

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/docs_wsw/RUB_285/thecommonantiairmissilefamily(camm)naval2.jpg

 

[SpudmanWP]

The Boeing solution is different than the CAMM design.

The CAMM design is a cold-launched missile that then uses dedicated side-thrusting maneuver rockets to get it pointed in the right direction before the main motor ignites.

The Boeing solution seems to indicate a systems that bleeds thrust from the main chamber while the main motor is burning.

That is what I meant by unique.

Here is a video on CAMM showing the two different motors and their sequence. The last part of the video shows, what I think, is an earlier version of CAMM being hot-launched and using direct TVC of the main motor exhaust (ala AIM-9x)

View: http://www.youtube.com/v/7oRmGFVLJ08&hl=en_US&fs=1&

 

[Trident]

Point taken. That difference is likely to be a consequence of the intended launch platform though - if CAAM was air launched, it would probably work in much the same manner.

 

[Hanse]

Boeing's vectoring concept there was first mentioned several years ago but damned if I can remember where. :-[ (And it does bleed off the main motor.)

 

[SpudmanWP]

Was it in relation to DRADM-T?

btw, here is the FY2011 R&D funding doc

http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2011/AirForce/0604330F_PB_2011.pdf

According to the doc, the engine tech (DRADM-T) is almost done and we should have a prototype by next year.

 

[Hanse]

I don't remember. I just remember thinking "hmm, sounds complicated". :-\

 

[batigol]

From flightglobal, a look at the JDRADM mock ups.

First peek at Raytheon's next air dominance missile
by: Steven Trimble

Raytheon has offered the first peek into the company's approach to designing a next generation missile to replace both the AIM-120 AMRAAM and AGM-88 HARM.

For the first time, the company has displayed a full-scale mock-up of one of several candidates being considered for the emerging US Air Force requirement for a dual role air dominance missile (DRADM).

The design shown at the Air Warfare Sympsoium on 16-17 February features an AMRAAM-like missile body integrated with what appears to be a variable flow ducted rocket (VFDR), or ramjet.

Full article here: https://web.archive.org/web/2011022...e/2011/02/photos-first-peek-at-raytheons.html

 

[bring_it_on]

Was researching this and other missile related programs and came across a few articles.

US Air Force Eyes Flight of Ramjet Missile

https://www.scribd.com/doc/261559180/US-Air-Force-Eyes-Flight-of-Ramjet-Missile

Ramjet BVRAAM Used in Gulf War Combat

https://www.scribd.com/doc/261556288/Ramjet-BVRAAM-Used-in-Gulf-War-Combat

 

[GTX]

Ramjet BVRAAM Used in Gulf War Combat

https://www.scribd.com/doc/261556288/Ramjet-BVRAAM-Used-in-Gulf-War-Combat

I remember reading about that - was it ever confirmed?

 

[Hanse]

I'd think if there was anything to it we'd have heard more by now.

 

[bring_it_on]

I guess we'll never know for sure.

From what is known the first VFDR at Aerojet (ARC) was tested for the AMRAAM around 1997 so if the above story is true it must have been a liquid ramjet or some different OEM perhaps doing the work.

From Flight International (G Warwick, Feb 2004)

In 1997, ARC completed ground tests of a flight-weight, 180mm (7in)-diameter VFDR to power a proposed extended-range version of the AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile. Now Aerojet is producing a 355mm-diameter VFDR to power Orbital Sciences' GQM-136A Coyote supersonic sea-skimming target, and a 255mm-diameter version for the US Navy's High-Speed Anti-Radiation Demonstration missile, with twice the range and two to three times the average velocity of the AGM-88 HARM anti-radar missile.

 

[Hanse]

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3411.msg41606.html#msg41606