NATO helicopter gunship for the 70s

uk 75

uk 75

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
27 September 2006
Messages
6,366
Reaction score
6,703
Although the excellent AH1 Cobra was deployed to Europe in the 1970s and received TOW missiles to help it kill Soviet armour, noone else in NATO could afford it.
That left W Germany sticking six HOT missile launchers on its Bo 105 light observation helicopter and the British Army SS11 missiles on Scout. Noone else bothered at all.
Yet paper projects abounded. Despite (or perhaps because of) them no purpose built gunship helicopter had arrived in non US NATO service by the end of the Cold War. The UK had bought TOW for its Lynxes and I think the Italian Agusta A129 with TOW was coming into service.
In the Alt History world can we do better?
Clearly the TOW Cobra offered an off the shelf solution.
 
A Lynx-based gunship makes the most sense, not as if there were not attempts to do so, just lack of money and political willpower to do so.
An AH where MBB shacks up with Westland instead of Aerospatiale would be very interesting.
 
IIUC despite not mounting ATGMs helicopters were to be used extensively to rapidly deploy small infantry teams with ATGMs into the path of emerging armoured penetrations to conduct ambushes with MILANS etc.
 
In the 1970s, assuming the gunship reuses an existing platform & drivetrain (similar to the UH-1 Huey -> AH-1 Cobra evolution), the options are:

AH-1S: 4,500kg, 1x 1800hp T53

Lynx: 4,400kg, 2x 900hp Gem 2s

SA-360C Dauphin: 3,000kg, 1x 1,030hp Astazou XVIIIB

A109A: 2,600kg, 2x 420hp 250-C20B

BO-105: 2,500kg, 2x 420hp 250-C20B
 
Never heard of that Bo115 before! cute little baby Cobra!

H_K said:
In the 1970s, assuming the gunship reuses an existing platform & drivetrain (similar to the UH-1 Huey -> AH-1 Cobra evolution),
Click to expand...
The reason the Cobra was created and still has an H-1 number instead of something in the 50s is how the Army went about procuring it. If it was a variation of an existing type, they didn't have to recompete the contract, they could just go to Bell and say "make us a Huey with a more powerful T53 engine." Except in this case they went to Bell and said "make us a narrow fuselage Huey with a chin turret and stub wings to hang weapons on."

So it's not guaranteed that they'd use the same engines as an existing helicopter.

Aviation being what it is, the manufacturers probably would have used existing parts as much as possible to save development time.

It wouldn't surprise me if Westland built something like the S-67 Blackhawk on the H-3 engine, transmission, and tail boom.
 
H_K said:
In the 1970s, assuming the gunship reuses an existing platform & drivetrain (similar to the UH-1 Huey -> AH-1 Cobra evolution), the options are:

AH-1S: 4,500kg, 1x 1800hp T53

Lynx: 4,400kg, 2x 900hp Gem 2s

SA-360C Dauphin: 3,000kg, 1x 1,030hp Astazou XVIIIB

A109A: 2,600kg, 2x 420hp 250-C20B

BO-105: 2,500kg, 2x 420hp 250-C20B
Click to expand...
Thinking about this list of gunship options a little more…

1) AH-1G/S Cobra probably was hard to beat on price, given the sheer production volume and 80% parts commonality with the UH-1 Huey (at least for early model Cobras)

2) Lynx gunship with 2x Gems is basically a Mangusta… great helo but same size as a Cobra and no reason it would be any cheaper

3) A109 and BO-105 are very similar light twins. Either one could get the BO-115 treatment (which reminds me of the IAR-317 Airfox) but would probably still be too light

4) SA-360 Dauphin is an interesting hypothetical… meaningfully smaller than a Cobra (about 25% smaller) , but 20% larger than the A109 or BO105 and without the weight penalties of being a twin. Close in size to the original Huey gunships (Model 204 or UH-1B/C), it was marketed as a gunship but didn’t see any military users, civilian sales were also very disappointing. Still would be my preferred starting point for a light mini-Cobra.

SA-360 Dauphin:
Fvc-ctkWcAM98Df.jpg


With Hot anti tank missiles:
Fvc-b7UXsAEazpe


With nose mounted sight added later:
Fvc_iiIWwAI0n7S


Even had a Kiowa-style mast mounted sight tested later in the late 80s:
les-2-dauphins-constructeur-vus-a-phalsbourg_orig.jpg
 
Here are a few technical documents for those interested in 1970s helicopter technology and potential light gunships:

1) AH-1G Cobra design spec + detailed weight breakdown

2) SA-360C Dauphin design spec... see detailed weight breakdown on page 11

3) HOT missile system description

Looking at the SA-360C as an example of a light 3 ton helicopter, how much room do you have to militarize it? Empty weight is ~1,700kg, add 2 pilots (180 kg), fuel (470 kg), and that only leaves about 650kg for military equipment, ordnance, armor etc. That's better than a 2.3 ton BO-105 which weighs 1,280 kg empty + 180 kg pilots + 450 kg fuel, leaving only ~385 kg for military equipment (6 Hot missiles + pylons + sight), but still not much.

I'll work on a sample weight breakdown to illustrate.
 

Attachments

  • Hot Missile System 1975.pdf
    8.8 MB · Views: 33
  • SA-360C Dauphin Technical Specification.pdf
    14.2 MB · Views: 39
  • AH-1G Cobra weights breakdown.pdf
    5.9 MB · Views: 27
  • AH-1G Cobra Design Spec.pdf
    9.6 MB · Views: 24
Last edited:
overscan (PaulMM) said:
BO-115 is just reposts of pics from this topic:

Click to expand...
Thanks, the PAH2 program requirements and P277 design details are helpful context. It seems like the conclusion was that a Cobra or Lynx sized gunship (4,300kg TO weight) was needed to meet all the requirements.

That being said, I still like the idea of a smaller gunship, around ~3,000kg TO weight including 700kg military load (weapon systems, ordnance, and some limited armor).

Here's what I sketched out using the SA360 Dauphin as a starting point, with an OH-1 front fuselage, roof sight and 20mm Giat M621 low recoil canon. SA-360 Dauphin vs AH-1E Cobra 100px=1m vF.png
 
Last edited:
Using weights from the AH-1G design spec I posted earlier, my weight breakdown for this mini-Cobra gunship would be as follows:

1,720kg | Empty equipped (SA-360C original spec)
180kg | 2 pilots
400kg | Fuel per PAH-2 requirements (3h45 endurance or 2h combat mission incl. 40min hover/fast cruise)
= 2,300kg TO weight (unarmed)

100kg | Armor & passive protection (-25% less than a Cobra)
240kg | 20mm gun + 250rnds (Giat THL20 turret)
100kg | Wing + pylons (per AH-1G spec)
50kg | Roof mounted sight + Hot/Tow missile system
180kg | 4x Hot/Tow missiles + launchers
100kg | 7x 70mm rockets (or 12x 68mm)
= 770kg military load

…Which puts me at 3,070kg TO weight, slightly over the real life SA-360C, but close. With a mixed armament of 250x 20mm, 4x anti-tank missiles and 7-12x rockets this gunship definitely wouldn’t have the punch of a Cobra or Apache, but would be much better than nothing (or a BO-105 or Gazelle).
 
Last edited:
H_K said:
Using weights from the AH-1G design spec I posted earlier, my weight breakdown for this mini-Cobra gunship would be as follows:

1,720kg | Empty equipped (SA-360C original spec)
180kg | 2 pilots
400kg | Fuel per PAH-2 requirements (3h45 endurance or 2h combat mission incl. 40min hover/fast cruise)
= 2,300kg TO weight (unarmed)

100kg | Armor & passive protection (-25% less than a Cobra)
240kg | 20mm gun + 250rnds (Giat THL20 turret)
100kg | Wing + pylons (per AH-1G spec)
50kg | Roof mounted sight + Hot/Tow missile system
180kg | 4x Hot/Tow missiles + launchers
100kg | 7x 70mm rockets (or 12x 68mm)
= 770kg military load

…Which puts me at 3,070kg TO weight, slightly over the real life SA-360C, but close. With a mixed armament of 250x 20mm, 4x anti-tank missiles and 7-12x rockets this gunship definitely wouldn’t have the punch of a Cobra or Apache, but would be much better than nothing (or a BO-105 or Gazelle).
Click to expand...
That'd be a good scout load. It's about the warload that the RAH66 was designed for.
 
uk 75 said:
Although the excellent AH1 Cobra was deployed to Europe in the 1970s and received TOW missiles to help it kill Soviet armour, noone else in NATO could afford it.
Click to expand...

I don't think unit cost was the issue with the Cobra, after all the Spanish navy purchased a batch for CAS. And the Bo-105 was probably more expensive, that thing was priced like a flying Mercedes.

The main issue was that EuroNATO army budgets and manpower didn't allow the luxury of operating dedicated attack helicopters alongside scouting, trooping and liaison. So buying Alouettes or Hueys was a logical choice, since the same type could perform dual- or triple-duty.

Designing a "cheaper" attack helicopter won't fix that organisational problem.
 
Last edited:
Archibald said:
17 posts and no mention of the Gazelle, I mean the French armed variant ?
Click to expand...
A “Super Gazelle” was what was really needed, with an Astazou engine with more oomph.

The SA342M Gazelle was limited to 2,100kg take off weight, which in later years with added equipment (Viviane night sight, cockpit & seat armor, exhaust gas diverter etc) only allowed for 1 HOT missile (!) to be carried with full fuel.

This “Super Gazelle” was basically the SA360/361 Dauphin, with its Astazou XVIII (+20% more power) and later Astazou XX. Which is why I was thinking of giving it the mini Cobra treatment with slimmed down fuselage, 20mm gun turret and 2 small wings for weapons…
 
MadRat said:
Daughin was 14 years away from its pinnacle gunship design.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWAvfqLLc84&t=9s
Click to expand...
Airwolf was based on a Bell 222, though.

For a 2020s Airwolf, I'd use an HH-65 airframe but with the tail boom from an EC565, engines and rotor blades from the AW159 Wildcat, transmission and rotor hub from the HH3 for more blades and lower rotor rpm (=less rotor noise). Adding sponsons like the Bell 222 for some more lift (and space for the guns).
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom