Nahuel Argentine tank design

[robunos]

On page 58 (page 69 of the PDF) of '"Fabrica Militar de Aviones, historias y testimonios",
see here :-

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,211.msg86741.html#msg86741

there's a picture of a very Sherman like tank.
As the picture caption is in spanish, another
language that I don't speak a word of, my
first thought was to post both picture and caption,
and then ask for more information.
However, I decide to Google instead, and found
some information.
Posted below are the picture and caption from the book,
and two links that I found.


cheers,
Robin.

The Caption :-
"Tanque Pesado de 60 toneladas bautizado DL NAHUEL (tigre en idioma
mapuche). El motor era el LORRAINE DIETRICH construido en Córdoba para
los aviones caza. El Tanque fue presentado en 1944 junto al avión de
entrenamiento avanzado I.Ae. 22 DL."

LINKS :-

Nahuel DL 43 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/argentina/argentina.html

 

[elgatoso]

The Caption :-
"Tanque Pesado de 60 toneladas bautizado DL NAHUEL (tigre en idioma
mapuche). El motor era el LORRAINE DIETRICH construido en Córdoba para
los aviones caza. El Tanque fue presentado en 1944 junto al avión de
entrenamiento avanzado I.Ae. 22 DL."

translation:
60 tons Heavy tank called Nahuel(Tiger in mapuche(native dialect))motor was Lorraine Dietrich build for fighter.Tank was introduced in 1944 for advanced training

 

[robunos]

thanks for that, didn't realise it was so heavy.
I suppose one automatically thinks 'sherman copy',
when one sees it...


cheers,
Robin.

 

[lucamax]

I'm italian so sorry for my bad english.... The Nahuel was an emergency tank built to upgrade the aergentian's army. The problem was rapresented by the impossibility to import veichels from other main countries (expecially U.S.A.), that were too much involved into the war for sell precious battle tanks. The project began in 1943 and it was completely indigenuos, in spite of the similarity with the Sherman. By the 1945 there were produced only 19 tanks: no more were built because the end of the war allowed the government to buy Allies tanks surplus at lower prices, build a new tank was more expensive that buy one already made. The few Nahuels produced were retired from military service in few years.

There's someone who have a 3-wiew of this tank?

Thank you.

 

[kaiserbill]

Hi lucamax, your english is better than my italian!!

Are any of those 19 produced still around?

 

[lucamax]

Hi lucamax, your english is better than my italian!!

Are any of those 19 produced still around?

Thank you!

I know that by the '60 the major part of Nahuel were abandoned in military deposits. I think that they were dismantled at least.

 

[javierarg]

perspective, side view in colour, and book in spanish refered to Nahuel DL 43

 

[Herman]

Quite a remarkable technical achievement by the Argentinians, in my view. Aside from constructing a 60 ton tank, it is not a simple matter to adapt a fighter engine for use in a tank and to design and build a suitable transmission seems almost beyond belief, for Argentina in 1944.

 

[xiaofan]

Nahuel on parade.

 

[javierarg]

I Add 3-views, Excellent book!!

 

[Rickshaw]

Is that 4 view drawing distorted? It appears much narrower than the photos show.

 

[Jemiba]

Is that 4 view drawing distorted? It appears much narrower than the photos show.

Had the same idea, but the gun muzzle, the headlights, the turret roof and hatch, which
seem to be circular, actually are circular in the drawing. So it cannot be simply a distortion.
But I agree, that on the photos the tank seems to be wider.

 

[COLDOWN]

Hello.
I will make fast comments:
- It was 35 and 36 tons.
- There were produced only 12 vehicles.
- Nahuel means Jaguar, not tiger and not puma.
I have made several articles here in the Reporte de Batalla blog.
Regards

 

[riggerrob]

Dear Herman,
Can we agree to disagree on your comment about adapting fighter engines to AFVs?

The bulk of American M3 and M4 tanks were powered by Wright/Continental R-975, air-cooled, radial, airplane engines. They were prized for their high power to weight ratio. Many M3 Stuart light tanks were powered by Continental W-670, 7-cylinder, air-cooled, radial engines adapted from aircraft engines.

Some early war British tanks were powered by WW1-surplus Liberty airplane engines.
Post WW2, British Centurion tanks were powered by Rolls-Royce Merlin, airplane engines that were de-rated to run on lower octane pool petrol. Those Meteor engines had great power to weight ratios, but were a b****** tch to maintain. When those Meteor engines wore out, (1960s) many Second and Third World countries re-engined their Centurions with diesels. The other reason for switching to diesel was reducing fire risk.

 

[riggerrob]

As an aside, Switzerland developed a similar-looking tank during the 1950s. At first glance, Pz 58 and Pz 61 looked like Shermans with cast hulls. Production Pz 61 were armed with British 84 mm, 20 pounder guns. All up weight was 38 tons.

 

[robunos]

Hello.
I will make fast comments:
- It was 35 and 36 tons.
- There were produced only 12 vehicles.
- Nahuel means Jaguar, not tiger and not puma.
I have made several articles here in the Reporte de Batalla blog.
Regards

Thank you for the additional information and link . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Roland55]

During a 9th of July Parade.

 

[Badner]

Nahuel on parade.

I posted these photographs c. 2004 in a website ran by James Kirk, a friend born in Philadelphia. In 1983 MEDIOS PESADOS, a Spanish magazine published a translation of an article previously published in English in the quarterly bulletin of the German Club, in 1981. an expanded version, with over 20 photos obtained since was published in 1983.

 

[Badner]

Quite a remarkable technical achievement by the Argentinians, in my view. Aside from constructing a 60 ton tank, it is not a simple matter to adapt a fighter engine for use in a tank and to design and build a suitable transmission seems almost beyond belief, for Argentina in 1944.

Actually, the Nahuel weighed 35 tons. The transmission was produced by a Buenos Aires firm, based in Caballito, Pedro Merlini . An Argentine purchasing commission tin Europe tried to secure la license to produce German-tank engines and other materials in 1944, but due to power-struggles between various nazi party organizations this deal came to naught. The 450 h.p. Lorraine Dietritch 12 EB water-cooled engines was produced since 1930 by the Fabrica Militar de Aviones, (FMA)at Córdoba.Here's a pic of the first of these engines completed by the FMA, as as you can appreciate by these photos,that motor worked well enough mounted-on aircraft (it was also built under license in Czechoslovakia and Poland) but aboard a tank it did not fare not so well.

 

[COLDOWN]

Quite a remarkable technical achievement by the Argentinians, in my view. Aside from constructing a 60 ton tank, it is not a simple matter to adapt a fighter engine for use in a tank and to design and build a suitable transmission seems almost beyond belief, for Argentina in 1944.

Actually, the Nahuel weighed 35 tons. The transmission was produced by a Buenos Aires firm, based in Caballito, Pedro Merlini . An Argentine purchasing commission tin Europe tried to secure la license to produce German-tank engines and other materials in 1944, but due to power-struggles between various nazi party organizations this deal came to naught. The 450 h.p. Lorraine Dietritch 12 EB water-cooled engines was produced since 1930 by the Fabrica Militar de Aviones, (FMA)at Córdoba.Here's a pic of the first of these engines completed by the FMA, as as you can appreciate by these photos,that motor worked well enough mounted-on aircraft (it was also built under license in Czechoslovakia and Poland) but aboard a tank it did not fare not so well.

Yeah, the 60t figure is wrong. Other sources mentions 36,1 t.

The engine power was 505 cv (498 hp).

 

[Badner]

Although there were certain models of the Lorraine-Dietrich 12 that were more powerful, the model 12 EB adopted by both the Argentine Military and Naval Air Services and later produced at the FMA only developed 450 hp.

The Lorraine 12Eb was dimensionally the same as the 12Ew, but it had a compression ratio of 6.0 to 1 and produced 450 hp (336 kW) at 1,850 rpm. The engine weighed 822 lb (373 kg). The 12Eb was first run in late 1922 or early 1923, and 30 test engines were built in 1923. The 12Eb quickly proved itself to be a successful engine. In March 1924, the 12Eb was the most economic engine at an endurance competition (Concours de Moteurs de Grande Endurance) held at Chalais-Meudon, near Paris. The engine operated for a total of 410 hours at 1,850 rpm. During that time, three cylinders were replaced due to water leaks.

See: Lorraine-Dietrich ‘W’ Aircraft Engines | Old Machine Press

 

[Badner]

One of my articles on the Nahuel....

 

[Badner]

An earlier version of this article was published in the Italian magazine Aviazione e Marina, in April 1972., and an expanded version in the Spanish quarterly magazine Medios Pesados (January0March,1984). This did not impede a certain would be "cavaliere"(sic) from incorporating verbatim as his own on a book on South American armored vehicles. When a greatly expanded version was published in the 1990s, I included the following preface:

 

[COLDOWN]

Although there were certain models of the Lorraine-Dietrich 12 that were more powerful, the model 12 EB adopted by both the Argentine Military and Naval Air Services and later produced at the FMA only developed 450 hp.

The Lorraine 12Eb was dimensionally the same as the 12Ew, but it had a compression ratio of 6.0 to 1 and produced 450 hp (336 kW) at 1,850 rpm. The engine weighed 822 lb (373 kg). The 12Eb was first run in late 1922 or early 1923, and 30 test engines were built in 1923. The 12Eb quickly proved itself to be a successful engine. In March 1924, the 12Eb was the most economic engine at an endurance competition (Concours de Moteurs de Grande Endurance) held at Chalais-Meudon, near Paris. The engine operated for a total of 410 hours at 1,850 rpm. During that time, three cylinders were replaced due to water leaks.

See: Lorraine-Dietrich ‘W’ Aircraft Engines | Old Machine Press

Hello again, it seems to me that website assimilates CVs as HP, which are similar but not identical values.
According to the values presented in the Zona-Militar forum, the correct data is as follows:

Max. r.p.m....................1850.00 r.p.m...........1850.00 U/min
Max. power output:.............444 hp.....................450 ps
Short term max. r.p.m.....2100.00 r.p.m...........2100.00 U/min
Short term max. power output....505 hp................512 ps

Here are two things worth mentioning about the Nahuel's engines:
1- For this model, the maintenance quality of the Argentine engines was superior to the French, which improved their performance (source not at hand).
2- This LD 12Eb model was modified during its two decades of service, for which some authors mention 500 CV as the standard maximum power (R. J. Sigal Fogliani in "Blindados" and/or "Nahuel") and other additional upgrades (A.A.C.V.M. forums).
Regards

 

[MadRat]

Argentina had libras (little over 1 pound) and libra de farmacia (3/4 libra) that may have been used. The 60 tons may have referred to a wrong conversion by a writer confusing the two.

 

[Badner]

Here are two things worth mentioning about the Nahuel's engines:

1- For this model, the maintenance quality of the Argentine engines was superior to the French, which improved their performance (source not at hand).
2- This LD 12Eb model was modified during its two decades of service, for which some authors mention 500 CV as the standard maximum power (R. J. Sigal Fogliani in "Blindados" and/or "Nahuel") and other additional upgrades (A.A.C.V.M. forums).
Regards

Firstly, the FMA imported the engine blocks and all other engine parts from France, and simply burnished the engines blocks, drilled openings for the pistons and assembled them.

Secondly: In an earlier article, I noted that a Hispano-Suiza 12Gb W-12 water-cooled piston engine 500 hp. engine (which powered the imported D.21s) had been mounted experimentally in the prototype Nahuel, and according to a retired technician from the Esteban de Luca Arsenal, that engine (of which were only a few available) burst into flames.

Thirdly that so -called "Cavagliere"(sic) you mention cannot even copy correctly. He's the type I refer to in my "Aclaración"
Cheers

 

[Perdikofas]

Some more photos and a sketch from "Blindados Argentinos de Uruguay y Paraguay" by Ricardo Sigal Fogliani

 

[Badner]

As I said, this poor sod cannot even copy wright: the three hull-mounted machine guns were Madsen mod. 1926 7,65mm weapons

 

[COLDOWN]

Here are two things worth mentioning about the Nahuel's engines:

1- For this model, the maintenance quality of the Argentine engines was superior to the French, which improved their performance (source not at hand).
2- This LD 12Eb model was modified during its two decades of service, for which some authors mention 500 CV as the standard maximum power (R. J. Sigal Fogliani in "Blindados" and/or "Nahuel") and other additional upgrades (A.A.C.V.M. forums).
Regards

Firstly,the FMA imported the engine blocks and all other engine parts from France, and simply burnished the engines blocks, drill openings for the pistons and assembled them.

Secondly: In an earlier article, I noted that a Hispano-Suiza 12Gb W-12 water-cooled piston engine 500 hp. engine(which powered the imported D.21s) had been mounted experimentally in the prototype Nahuel, and according to a retired technician from the Esteban de Luca Arsenal,that engine (of which were only a few available) burst into flames.

Thirdly that so -called "Cavagliere" you mention cannot even copy correctly. He's is the type I refer to in my "Acaración"
Cheers

Mr Arne, right?

1- Regarding the imported engines, here it is mentioned that the engines reached the 470 hp (sic? 470 cv) https://avionesenargentina.com/el-primer-dewoitine-fma-d-21/ Main sources mentioned in this publication.
2- Sometimes I confuse the Gaucho (450) with the Hispano-Suizo (500), I thought that the first one was set on fire and that the second was an idea.
3- Yeah, I agree. But, for certain details, for his additional works he remains a source. He is also a charismatic character haha

Regards

 

[Badner]

Here are two things worth mentioning about the Nahuel's engines:

1- For this model, the maintenance quality of the Argentine engines was superior to the French, which improved their performance (source not at hand).
2- This LD 12Eb model was modified during its two decades of service, for which some authors mention 500 CV as the standard maximum power (R. J. Sigal Fogliani in "Blindados" and/or "Nahuel") and other additional upgrades (A.A.C.V.M. forums).
Regards

Firstly,the FMA imported the engine blocks and all other engine parts from France, and simply burnished the engines blocks, drill openings for the pistons and assembled them.

Secondly: In an earlier article, I noted that a Hispano-Suiza 12Gb W-12 water-cooled piston engine 500 hp. engine (which powered the imported D.21s) had been mounted experimentally in the prototype Nahuel, and according to a retired technician from the Esteban de Luca Arsenal,that engine (of which were only a few available) burst into flames.

Thirdly that so -called "Cavagliere" you mention cannot even copy correctly. He's is the type I refer to in my "Aclaración"
Cheers

Mr Arne, right?

1- Regarding the imported engines, here it is mentioned that the engines reached the 470 hp (sic? 470 cv) https://avionesenargentina.com/el-primer-dewoitine-fma-d-21/ Main sources mentioned in this publication.
2- Sometimes I confuse the Gaucho (450) with the Hispano-Suizo (500), I thought that the first one was set on fire and that the second was an idea.
3- Yeah, I agree. But, for certain details, for his additional works he remains a source.

Regards

Mr. Arne No... Mr. Rauch... Arne Ludwig Brunner, and old and dear friend who was years ago, the repository of my collections now lives in Vancouver (British Columbia)


1- Regarding the imported engines, here it is mentioned that the engines reached the 470 hp (sic? 470 cv) https://avionesenargentina.com/el-primer-dewoitine-fma-d-21.


I wouldn't take that source as gospel if I were you. Six additional D.21's were assembled c.1935-36 by the FMA from surplus parts and components. As far as the D.25s, they were powered by the Lorraine-Dietritch 450 according to my friend ,the late Jean Cuny, co-author of Les Avions Dewoitine.. (DOCAVIA, France, 1980),one of two such works about Dewoitine, who at the time was still alive and dictated much of the text, in a very "sui generis" style..

 

[Badner]

Additional photos of the Nahuel.

 

[Badner]

And more of the same

 

[COLDOWN]

Georg, awesome collection.

 

[Badner]

Georg, awesome collection.

Thanks-While visiting the 6th Cavalry Reg. in Concordia, Col. Anschutz, the regimental commander was a most cordial host, and loaned me a book with real photographs detailing the development of the Nahuel. He was later posted as the Argentine Military Attaché in London, and then met him again in Buenos Aires in 2005-during the II International Congress of Argentine Military History- By then he was a genetral-and thanked me for the copy of Armored Vehicles of the Argentine Army. It was the least I could do,

 

[Badner]

1) Close up of a Nahuel.
2) wooden mock-up 1:1 scale of the Nahuel tank.
3) one of two Nahuel tanks exhibited on a Exibition, showing the development of aircraft and other materials produced by Argentine industry, ,4 June 1944

 

[Badner]

A rather accurate drawing of the Nahuel

 

[Badner]

A Nahuel used as an altar