Mystery V1 British Counter-Measures Weapon......

[xylstra]

KNOCKING-DOWN THE V1! "How, Oh how do we do it!?"
.... well, I'm sure we're all familiar with the usual 'suspects': the high-speed fighter intercepts, the AA batteries equipped with proximity-fused shells, barrage balloons, bombing the launch-sites, etc.......
Here's one that might have eluded you: I am given to understand that during the dark days of the V1 onslaught when there was no end in sight and no fore-knowledge of how the German attack campaign would develop and progress the government turned to the boffinss to develop a more effective and durable solution.
There answer?
They identified the V1's magnetic directional compass as being the weapon's 'Archilles Heal'. They cunningly formulated a plan to electrify all of the railway tracks lying across the V1's principal flight-path with DC current (à la similar to ships' de-gaussing coils, common at the time). Apparently at the time the V1 campaign had begun to subside with Allied invasion troops over-running the V1 launch sites some of the equipment for this counter-measures weapon was well under construction.
That's all I know on the subject ................... it's not enough!!
I want to know more: project name, names of the projects promoters and personnel, the 'whens' and the 'wheres', dates and places, technical reports and drawings, pictures, etc......
Can anyone provide further information on this most mysterious and intriguing project?

 

[Hood]

I seem to remember reading reference to this idea somewhere a long time ago, but can't remember where. Might of been in R.V Jones' Most Secret War, but that's a guess on my part.

 

[Graham1973]

I'll have to pull out my copy of Most Secret War but I'm pretty certain that the concept you are describing is not in there.

 

[Barrington Bond]

I read that recently, cannot remember that being in it. Highly recommended excellent book.

 

[Temistocle]

Hi xlystra, I remembered I have read that info in a very nice book: Instruments of Darkness: The history of electronic warfare, 1939-1945, by Alfred Price. It was published in 1967, then in an expanded revision in 1977. I have the 2005 completely revised edition, below some excerpts from pages 225-226 (taken from Google books)
You can find some other info in this excerpt from International Air Power Review N. 27 (2010), p.158, taken from the article "Vergeltungswaffe 1: Adolf Hitler's revenge weapon", by the same Alfred Price:

 

[dan_inbox]

1000 Amps direct current on the railway lines, wouldn't that cause a lot of problems for the rolling stock?
Not to mention the slaughter of rabbits, foxes and whatnot, and probably quite a few pedestrians as well.

Wouldn't the insulation be quite an issue, when it rains? Which happens, around London...
Besides, maybe V1s would be disturbed, but wouldn't the whole British air traffic too?

This sounds seriously whacky to me. It would make more sense to set a grid of balloons with de-gaussing rings, at the right altitude to need much less power, with a power-supply cable from below. Generate the signal where it's needed, and the square of the radius works in your favour instead.

 

[Yellow Palace]

1000 Amps direct current on the railway lines, wouldn't that cause a lot of problems for the rolling stock?

I imagine it would have used the third-rail electrified lines around South London, which were easily capable of handling the requisite current. Although at only about 750V the power isn't even close to the projected requirement, and upping the voltage would create serious issues with arcing out against, well, everything. Third rail is lossy, but not that lossy.

 

[Dilandu]

Frankly, I seriously doubt that it would actually work... and problems from applying such power to rails would probably push the actual completion of the project far into 1945.

 

[Hood]

I imagine it would have used the third-rail electrified lines around South London, which were easily capable of handling the requisite current. Although at only about 750V the power isn't even close to the projected requirement, and upping the voltage would create serious issues with arcing out against, well, everything. Third rail is lossy, but not that lossy.

Yes, I suspect that would of been part of the plan, although I'm not how much of the surface third-rail system of the mid-1940s would have formed a continuous loop around London. Southern Railways for example would have been more of a north-south network towards the southern coast. Most railways even today still radiate out like spokes.
It's also worth noting that the quoted 60 mile 'loop' is actually rather larger than London, you are looking at something like Southend-on-Sea to Slough E-W and Letchworth to Crawley N-S in terms of scale. There would be an unavoidable gap across the Thames with a lack of any railways bridges south of the Port to the estuary itself.

 

[Yellow Palace]

It's also worth noting that the quoted 60 mile 'loop' is actually rather larger than London, you are looking at something like Southend-on-Sea to Slough E-W and Letchworth to Crawley N-S in terms of scale. There would be an unavoidable gap across the Thames with a lack of any railways bridges south of the Port to the estuary itself.

Remember that it's 60 miles in circumference, and you'd presumably want the loop to sit between V1 launching sites and London, which would put it somewhere in the south London suburbs. Exactly where the Southern Railway had started electrifying, but hadn't done the eastern section yet.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the proposal originated from the Southern Railway, hoping to get electrification works paid for by the government during wartime.

 

[Hood]

It's also worth noting that the quoted 60 mile 'loop' is actually rather larger than London, you are looking at something like Southend-on-Sea to Slough E-W and Letchworth to Crawley N-S in terms of scale. There would be an unavoidable gap across the Thames with a lack of any railways bridges south of the Port to the estuary itself.

Remember that it's 60 miles in circumference, and you'd presumably want the loop to sit between V1 launching sites and London, which would put it somewhere in the south London suburbs. Exactly where the Southern Railway had started electrifying, but hadn't done the eastern section yet.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the proposal originated from the Southern Railway, hoping to get electrification works paid for by the government during wartime.

Quite true, the plan was referring to circumference and not diameter! That makes it a diameter of roughly 18 miles which would more or less include all the of the existing third-rail London Underground lines of the time if the circle is London based. If as you say, its further south then indeed the Southern Railway's 660V third rail network could have been given a boost.

 

[xylstra]

I seem to remember reading reference to this idea somewhere a long time ago, but can't remember where. Might of been in R.V Jones' Most Secret War, but that's a guess on my part.

I seem to remember reading reference to this idea somewhere a long time ago, but can't remember where. Might of been in R.V Jones' Most Secret War, but that's a guess on my part.

No, it was likely the footnote in Brian Cull's recent book on the V-1 campaign - that's where I got it from. ...and it was all too brief, I'm afraid. Cheers.

 

[xylstra]

Hi xlystra, I remembered I have read that info in a very nice book: Instruments of Darkness: The history of electronic warfare, 1939-1945, by Alfred Price. It was published in 1967, then in an expanded revision in 1977. I have the 2005 completely revised edition, below some excerpts from pages 225-226 (taken from Google books)View attachment 624145View attachment 624146View attachment 624147
You can find some other info in this excerpt from International Air Power Review N. 27 (2010), p.158, taken from the article "Vergeltungswaffe 1: Adolf Hitler's revenge weapon", by the same Alfred Price:
View attachment 624152

Hi 'Grey Havoc', "You're the man!!" Well done, it still isn't plans or drawings but it's more than I've had to date and unless someone trips over a dusty box-file bulging with blueprints and sheaves of calculations stashed in the back of a dimly-lit filing cabinet then it's probably as close as anyone is likely to get to 'details'.
Don't relax everyone, still keep looking! Thanks again GH, Cheers, Xylstra.

 

[Temistocle]

Hi 'Grey Havoc', "You're the man!!" Well done, it still isn't plans or drawings but it's more than I've had to date and unless someone trips over a dusty box-file bulging with blueprints and sheaves of calculations stashed in the back of a dimly-lit filing cabinet then it's probably as close as anyone is likely to get to 'details'.
Don't relax everyone, still keep looking! Thanks again GH, Cheers, Xylstra.

Thank you, xlystra, but I am Temistocle... or you really wanted to thank Grey Havoc?

 

[xylstra]

Sorry, my small smartphone screen plays "havoc" with my straining eyesight! Cheers.

 

[Archibald]

British ingenuity will never cease to amaze me... will the Germans had a knack for wunderwaffen, you british had a knack to invent practical / clever tricks to fool them...

 

[DWG]

There would be an unavoidable gap across the Thames with a lack of any railways bridges south of the Port to the estuary itself.

There's the Woolwich foot tunnel roughly at the then docks/now Canary Wharf/London City Airport. Might not protect the docks, but would let you complete the circuit, possibly using the London to Chatham to Dover line to take it back out to the main ring. Or just lay a dedicated cable across the bed of the Thames at the appropriate radius.

 

[Temistocle]

There was another "magnetic wall" idea (SF?), from a 1939 russian magazine:

http://alternathistory.com/okno-v-budushhee-magnitnaya-stena/

It is in russian, but it can be easily translated with Google

 

[Dilandu]

There was another "magnetic wall" idea (SF?), from a 1939 russian magazine:

Mostly sci-fi, yes. In 1930s "death rays" and "beam walls" were quite a fad. The idea is to use powerful electromagnets, powered by pulse generator, to stop tanks (physically), and shells in air.