Morane Saulnier MS.405

[Jan den Das]

Concerning this serie I have a question concerning the first prototype.
The first MS.405 with 01 on the fuselage had a fixed landing gear, which is to see on a picture.
Who can help me with more details concerning this aeroplane with the FIXED landing gear, what I understand received it later a new landing gear and there were other modifications?
Jjr

 

[hesham]

Hard to find my dear Jan

but I will search in Avions magazine.

 

[Jan den Das]

Hai Hesham
Yes I know thats why
Jan

 

[Deltafan]

From the book Le Morane Saulnier 406, Lela Presse, 1998.

Prototype MS 405 N°01 :

-first photo with fixed landing gear, just before the first flight of 08.08.35
-second photo with retracting landing gear, on 12.07.36


All modifications are not mentioned in the book. But it's wrote (sorry for my bad English) :

-Strongest wing root for the footboard
-Modification of the interior of the cockpit
-Removal of the cockpit access sliding handle
-Smaller cockpit pillars for more glass and visibility
-lateral fuselage air intakes have been moved several times
-small propeller giving compressed air to the variable pitch
-the plane is equiped with a Bronzavia exhaust collector
-different propeller

 

[Jemiba]

It looks, as if the landing gear was just blocked in the down-positionm, rather than actually
designed without the ability to be retracted. Such measures were used sometimes, the first flight
(postwar) of the SNCAC NC.211 Cormoran comes to my mind.
It reduces risks, without hampering first tests too much, I think.

 

[Jan den Das]

Thanks Deltafan, each small detail is welcome.
Jerima, fixed version has not the folding system what was with the others

 

[Jemiba]

You may be right, but by comparing the main gear leg with a drawing I probably found in a "Les Ailes" issue
(not sure, sorry), I think, the main strut and the auxiliary strut behind it could be the same. Just the strut with
hinge was replaced by a fixed one.
The MS.400 (with radial engine)/405 were designed with retractable landing gear from the start, so building
the prototype with a different solution would have made not much sense, to my opinion.
If that photo of the prototype is available in higher res, maybe by zooming in the wheel well would be
recognisable ?

 

[Jan den Das]

I think I could see on a picture the wheel well.
I think that they locked the landing gear by removing the retractable part and put what you see on the picture.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Scale drawing here

 

[Jan den Das]

Such a drawing is also in Monografie Lotnicze about the M.S.406, thanks any way.
Concerning the first prototype I think that with the locked lading gear, the wheel well was closed

 

[Jan den Das]

Now I found that the first prototype of the MS.405 had a differend wing plan form that the later used.
Who knows more about this and are there any drawings of this first wing?

 

[Deltafan]

Now I found that the first prototype of the MS.405 had a differend wing plan form that the later used.
Who knows more about this and are there any drawings of this first wing?

Hi,

from Le Morane-Saulnier MS 406, Lela Presse, 1998 :


at the end of the flying tests by the french Armée de l'air (18/06/1936) some modifications were made on the first MS 405 prototype (MS 405-01):

-For the MAC wing machine guns, the belts were replaced by drum-magazines. Thats why there were little bumps around the guns on the wings after that (and for all the following planes too).
-The wing dihedral increased from 5°43 to 6°51.

New military flying tests with the first MS 405-01 began from December 1936. At least three propellers were used (Levasseur, Hispano-Suiza 56 and Chauvière. But No exact model is specified )




The second prototype of the MS 405 (MS 405-02) flew for the first time on 20/01/1937.

The MS 405-01 used a HS 12 Ygrs engine, but the MS 405-02 used a HS 12 Ycrs with a Chauvière 351M propeller. This Chauvière 351M propeller had 40cm more diameter (3m) than the Ratier of the MS 405-01 (2.60m diameter). That's why the MS 405-02 needed a longer retractable landing gear (as the MS 406 in series that were too equipped with the Chauvière 351M).
This modification needed too the repositioning of the wing "ribs" (? The word in French is "nervures") for the MS 405-02.
The 405-02 used too a Ratier and a Hispano-Suiza 27M propellers during the flying tests.




The pre-series MS 405 N°1 to N°15 were used to improve the plane. All these planes (and all the followers) had lateral fuselage air intakes and no more air intakes at the roots of the wings.

From the pre-series MS 405 N°12 the planes used a lighter wing (23 kilos less).



The MS 406 used different retractable landing gear "doors" than the MS 405, but I don't know if this was after the MS 405 N°15 or from a MS 406.





The three photos under are the MS 405-02 (with longer landing gear than the MS 405-01)


For the drawings under :

First great page :
-drawing 1 : MS 405-01 with fixed landing gear (08/1935)
-drawing 2 : MS 405-01 with retractable landing gear (07/1936)
-drawings 3-4-5 : MS 405 from pre-series

Second great page :
-drawings 1-2 : MS 405 from pre-series
-drawing 3 : MS 406 (from MS 405 n°4)
-drawings 4-5 : MS 407 LP (3 test bed planes for parachutes launch. After the tests, the 3 planes were returned to standard 406)
-drawing 6 : MS 406 with Chauvière propeller

Third great page :
-drawings 1-2-3 : MS 406 with Chauvière propeller
-drawing 4 : MS 406 with Ratier propeller and Bronzavia exhaust collector

little page :
-MS 405 initial and simplified wings (from pre-series MS 405 n°12)
It's wrote :
On this drawing, left, the initial wing structure of the MS 405 and right the simplified one after intense testing which proved the contribution of the plymax covering to torsion efforts. As a result, two struts have been discarded and duraluminium ribs have replaced the original steel ones. 23 kg were spared.

 

[Jemiba]

Hard to tell, but juding from the side views of the MS.405 n°01 and the C-1,
the wing of the n°01 seems to have had no kink ! But if we take the top view
into account, either the side view of the C-1, or its top view isn't correct, just
look at the red line, I've drawn. BTW, side and top views aren't exactly the
same scale....

 

[Jjr]

Hai jemiba, if you lookto the pictures of the 01, you can see no kink but only a bumb for the wheel wll

 

[Jemiba]

On photos taken from the front, that probably is very hard to see, there are no plan views
of the n°01, as far as I can see, and in the side views, the difference is negigible.
That kink was there to house the main wheels, so without the main gear would have
needed a different angle or a position further back, I think. Maybe changes incorporated
after tests with n°01, but with our current state of sources, I wouldn't dare to commit myself.

 

[Jjr]

Who can help with a drawing and all kind of dimensions etc of a wing (can be a 406), maybe usefull ?

 

[Jjr]

I think this pictures gives more impression that this wing is without knik?

 

[Jemiba]

Yes, the last one, taken from below, looks quite convincing.
Then only the question about the main gear position or angle
remains. Or maybe the wheels had a smaller diameter ?

 

[Jjr]

The wheel well of the production wings were in the knick and you can see that a part of the wheel well is before the leading edge of the wing at the prototype wing