Mikoyan Design Bureau MiG-21 and MiG-23 questions please?

[Pioneer]

G'day all

This Easter weekend, I've been going through some old magazine collections.

Whilst flicking through Airplane series Part 5, (1990) which principly covers the Mikoyan MiG-23 'Flogger', I couldn't help notice:
-"Mikoyan studied but never flew a 'swing-wing' MiG-21"

-"The MiG-23's engine has already been mentioned, and many versions of MiG-23 and MiG-27 have provision for assisted take-off booster rockets to be attached on each side of the rear fuselage"

(Source: Mikoyan MiG-23 'Flogger'. Airplane Part 5, 1990. ORBIS)

I can't say I've ever seen anything to do with either this 'studied swing-wing MiG-21', nor the MiG-23 fitted with 'assisted take-off booster rockets'
statements.
Has anyone got any drawings or Mikoyan Design Bureau (OKB) models of these swing-wing MiG-21's or pictures of a MiG-23 fitted with or taking off with these assisted take-off booster rockets?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

They would have to exist in order to show you those.

The "booster rockets" was a misintepretation of the rear fuselage pylon attachments on the MiG-23BN/-27 probably by Bill Gunston (he repeats it in several publications). No idea where the swing wing MiG-21 idea comes from.

Seriously, it's a partwork by Aerospace Publishing, using updated content from their earlier History of Avation (1982-85) and Warplane (1985-88) partworks. I wouldn't take anything on Soviet aircraft very seriously, it predates any access to real sources, and is a "design-to-cost" product. I worked there for a couple of weeks work experience, World Air Power Journal was their "serious effort" publication.

 

[Pioneer]

They would have to exist in order to show you those.

The "booster rockets" was a misintepretation of the rear fuselage pylon attachments on the MiG-23BN/-27 probably by Bill Gunston (he repeats it in several publications). No idea where the swing wing MiG-21 idea comes from.

Seriously, it's a partwork by Aerospace Publishing, using updated content from their earlier History of Avation (1982-85) and Warplane (1985-88) partworks. I wouldn't take anything on Soviet aircraft very seriously, it predates any access to real sources, and is a "design-to-cost" product. I worked there for a couple of weeks work experience, World Air Power Journal was their "serious effort" publication.

Thanks for your insight Paul.
I thought I should have seen something along the lines of infomation on a 'swing-wing' MiG-21 study on this informative forum sometime ago, if such a design study existed.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Maybe this isn't related to the topic, but, would a swing-wing MiG-21 be possible? I highly doubt it, due to the MiG-21's relatively small airframe, the hinge might not fit, but, would it work?

 

[Tiger2]

I haven't heard anything about the swing wing MiG-21 and discussion here seems to suggest it may not have been real. However there was this, the MiG-21 Analog which was a MiG-21 modified with a tailless delta wing as a testbed for the Tu-144's wing design.

 

[Tiger2]

Maybe this isn't related to the topic, but, would a swing-wing MiG-21 be possible? I highly doubt it, due to the MiG-21's relatively small airframe, the hinge might not fit, but, would it work?

There does exist the somewhat similar Su-22 Fitter, but it is somewhat larger than the Fishbed. Perhaps if the airframe was modified to be larger it could work?

 

[F.L.]

(I haven't succeeded in finding a better thread for my question. So if a mod wants to move my message.)
Which missile is visible under the wing of this MiG-21PFL ?
It looks like an AIM-4 ! In any case, it's not an R-3S. It's really strange.

 

[_Del_]

(I haven't succeeded in finding a better thread for my question. So if a mod wants to move my message.)
Which missile is visible under the wing of this MiG-21PFL ?
It looks like an AIM-4 ! In any case, it's not an R-3S. It's really strange.

Looks like a K-13 variant to me. Not sure what you're seeing. You can even clearly see the rollerons. Maybe the shadow of the MiG's tailfin is confusing you?

 

[TomS]

(I haven't succeeded in finding a better thread for my question. So if a mod wants to move my message.)
Which missile is visible under the wing of this MiG-21PFL ?
It looks like an AIM-4 ! In any case, it's not an R-3S. It's really strange.

Looks like a K-13 variant to me. Not sure what you're seeing. You can even clearly see the rollerons. Maybe the shadow of the MiG's tailfin is confusing you?

Big long delta fins aft. I think it's an R-60/AA-8, not a K-13.

Edit: I looked again, and as you said, what looked like the long delta strake is actually just a shadow from the tailplane of the aircraft. Agreed, it's a K-13.

 

[F.L.]

Thank you, you're right, it is the shadow.
In any case the R-3S is (normally) the only type of missile that can be used by the MiG-21PFL.

 

[TomS]

Thank you, you're right, it is the shadow.
In any case the R-3S is (normally) the only type of missile that can be used by the MiG-21PFL.

R-3S and K-13A are just different names for the same thing, no?

Here's another pic of a Vietnamese MiG-21PMF with K-13s (a museum exhibit)

Aviation Photo #0992662: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21PFL - Vietnam - Air Force

A MiG-21PFL in the Air Defence Museum, marked with thirteen victories. One of the victories is known to be US Navy F-4B 151485, shot down on May 7, 1968 by Nguyen Van Coc. The aircraft is armed with two K-13A (AA-2 Atoll) IR-homing missiles. [Canon PowerShot S2 IS] - Photo taken at Hanoi - Bach...

www.airliners.net

 

[F.L.]

Thank you, you're right, it is the shadow.
In any case the R-3S is (normally) the only type of missile that can be used by the MiG-21PFL.

R-3S and K-13A are just different names for the same thing, no?

Here's another pic of a Vietnamese MiG-21PMF with K-13s (a museum exhibit)

Aviation Photo #0992662: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21PFL - Vietnam - Air Force

A MiG-21PFL in the Air Defence Museum, marked with thirteen victories. One of the victories is known to be US Navy F-4B 151485, shot down on May 7, 1968 by Nguyen Van Coc. The aircraft is armed with two K-13A (AA-2 Atoll) IR-homing missiles. [Canon PowerShot S2 IS] - Photo taken at Hanoi - Bach...

www.airliners.net

Be careful, it's different :
R-3S (K-13),
R-3R (K-13R) SAHR variant,
R-13M (K-13M) "Advanced Atoll" was roughly equivalent to the AIM-9G,
& R-13M1 improved variant.

I don't think the K-13A designation exists, if anyone knows more ?

 

[F.L.]

Thank you, you're right, it is the shadow.
In any case the R-3S is (normally) the only type of missile that can be used by the MiG-21PFL

Here's another pic of a Vietnamese MiG-21PMF with K-13s (a museum exhibit)

Aviation Photo #0992662: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21PFL - Vietnam - Air Force

A MiG-21PFL in the Air Defence Museum, marked with thirteen victories. One of the victories is known to be US Navy F-4B 151485, shot down on May 7, 1968 by Nguyen Van Coc. The aircraft is armed with two K-13A (AA-2 Atoll) IR-homing missiles. [Canon PowerShot S2 IS] - Photo taken at Hanoi - Bach...

www.airliners.net

Not a PFM !!!
It's a MiG-21PFL (sometimes called MiG-21PFV), a variant specially designed for Vietnam with a different radar.

 

[TomS]

Not a PFM !!!
It's a MiG-21PFL (sometimes called MiG-21PFV), a variant specially designed for Vietnam with a different radar.

Oops. Just a typo -- the image even says PFL. Sorry.

I don't think the K-13A designation exists, if anyone knows more ?

Quite a few sources say K-13A is the same as R-3S. Here's an archived FAS page citing a publication form Hong Kong in the late 1990s. (That's the source for Wikipedia).

AA-2 ATOLL

The Soviets soon made advances over the original Sidewinder model, making dozen of modifications to the initial design. In 1960 series-production of the K-13 missile (also called R-3 or Object 310) began. In 1962 the R-3S (K13A or Object 310) became the first version to be produced in large numbers, though its homing operation took much more time (22 seconds instead of 11 seconds). In 1961 development began of the high-altitude K-13R (R-3R or Object 320) with a semiactive radar head, which was entered service with combat aircraft in 1966.

Here's Missilery.info citing some Russian sources (note that they use R-3C instead of R-3S most places because that's the Cyrilic letter):

R-3S aircraft missile (K-13, item 310 and 310A) | Missilery.info

The R-3C self-guided aircraft missile (K-13, item 310 and 310A) belongs to the air-to-air missile class and is intended for arming fighters attacking targets in the rear hemisphere. The missile can

en.missilery.info

In the course of ground testing and trials revealed the possibility of increasing the launch range of K-13 missiles on subsonic targets. However, to expand the launch area it was necessary to increase the operating time of the onboard power supply. The rocket with a modified gas generator later received the name K-13A.

 

[_Del_]

Edit: I looked again, and as you said, what looked like the long delta strake is actually just a shadow from the tailplane of the aircraft. Agreed, it's a K-13.

That's okay, I was so with-it this morning I said "tailfin". I'm leaving it as a monument to hubris, though.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Thank you, you're right, it is the shadow.
In any case the R-3S is (normally) the only type of missile that can be used by the MiG-21PFL.

R-3S and K-13A are just different names for the same thing, no?

Yes.

K-13 is the design bureau / prototype designation. R-3S is an Air Force production designation. Izdeliye ("Object") 310 is yet another designation for the same design.

Later on, the convention came to be to use the same number for K- and R- designations.

Different designations were routinely used in the OKB, the factory, and the Air Force, presumably for reasons of security.

 

[F.L.]

Thank you, you're right, it is the shadow.
In any case the R-3S is (normally) the only type of missile that can be used by the MiG-21PFL.

R-3S and K-13A are just different names for the same thing, no?

Yes.

K-13 is the design bureau / prototype designation. R-3S is an Air Force production designation. Izdeliye ("Object") 310 is yet another designation for the same design.

Later on, the convention came to be to use the same number for K- and R- designations.

Different designations were routinely used in the OKB, the factory, and the Air Force, presumably for reasons of security.

Thanks Paul !!!