Mig-19 vs F-5 (Vietnam War period)

[Ronny]

Assuming cost/logistic is not a factor
Which is the better fighter of that period? And why?

 

[martinbayer]

In terms of timeframe, capabilities, and fighter generations, wouldn't F-5 vs. MiG-21 be a more apt/relevant comparison?

 

[aim9xray]

MiG-19 vs F-5 (F-5E??)
Wrong question. Which side has the better tactics and more experienced pilots? WRT the pilots, which side supports their pilots with sufficient flight hours/month to keep sharp? WRT to the aircraft, which side has funded their force and trained their maintainers to support more than a minimal MC rate?

And which side has the discipline to not "get into a knife fight in a phone booth"?

 

[Ronny]

In terms of timeframe, capabilities, and fighter generations, wouldn't F-5 vs. MiG-21 be a more apt/relevant comparison?

Maybe but I’m more interested in Mig-19 capability

 

[Ronny]

MiG-19 vs F-5 (F-5E??)
Wrong question. Which side has the better tactics and more experienced pilots? WRT the pilots, which side supports their pilots with sufficient flight hours/month to keep sharp? WRT to the aircraft, which side has funded their force and trained their maintainers to support more than a minimal MC rate?

And which side has the discipline to not "get into a knife fight in a phone booth"?

These factors you mentioned probably more important to win a war, but I’m just interested in the technical characteristic of these fighters

 

[njiiaf]

I believe the F-5 was the better fighter. How much better really depends on which variants we’re talking about.
Both early MiG-19 and F-5A/B variants lacked a radar. Though the MiG also lacked missiles until later variants.
The later MiG-19P and F-5E/F both included radars, but the F-5’s was superior in part due to a larger radome and side mounted air intakes.
F-5s of all variants were considerably faster than the MiG-19; the MiG had a top speed of around 1.3 Mach while the F-5 could theoretically reach 1.6 Mach.
The F-5 also had superior range and payload.

On the other hand, the MiG-19 had an impressive TWR for its time and, as a result, had a superior sustained turn rate and climb rate. The F-5 had excellent aerodynamics, however, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was more than competitive in the ‘slow speed, nose pointing fight’.

I believe engine reliability was a major issue on earlier MiG-19s. They were also quite tricky to fly.
Furthermore, I would take any AIM-9 variant over K-13s.
Edit: The MiG-19 is closer in comparison to the Super Sabre. The F-5 is probably best compared to the MiG-21 and according to this Soviet test pilot, was superior in a dogfight.

Soviet Pilot who test flew captured F-5 against MiG-21, MiG-23 explains why the Tiger beat the Fishbed, Flogger in every engagement - The Aviation Geek Club

Soviet Pilot who test flew captured F-5 against MiG-21, MiG-23 explains why the Tiger beat the Fishbed, Flogger in every engagement

theaviationgeekclub.com

 

[Ronny]

I believe the F-5 was the better fighter. How much better really depends on which variants we’re talking about.
Both early MiG-19 and F-5A/B variants lacked a radar. Though the MiG also lacked missiles until later variants.
The later MiG-19S and F-5E/F both included radars, but the F-5’s was superior in part due to a larger radome and side mounted air intakes.
F-5s of all variants were considerably faster than the MiG-19; the MiG had a top speed of around 1.3 Mach while the F-5 could theoretically reach 1.6 Mach.
The F-5 also had superior range and payload.

On the other hand, the MiG-19 had an impressive TWR for its time and, as a result, had a superior sustained turn rate and climb rate. The F-5 had excellent aerodynamics, however, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was more than competitive in the ‘slow speed, nose pointing fight’.

I believe engine reliability was a major issue on earlier MiG-19s. They were also quite tricky to fly.
Furthermore, I would take any AIM-9 variant over K-13s.
Edit: The MiG-19 is closer in comparison to the Super Sabre. The F-5 is probably best compared to the MiG-21 and according to this Soviet test pilot, was superior in a dogfight.

Soviet Pilot who test flew captured F-5 against MiG-21, MiG-23 explains why the Tiger beat the Fishbed, Flogger in every engagement - The Aviation Geek Club

Soviet Pilot who test flew captured F-5 against MiG-21, MiG-23 explains why the Tiger beat the Fishbed, Flogger in every engagement

theaviationgeekclub.com

Thank you this is the short of answer I’m looking for.
Anyway, isn’t the superior radar and speed of F-5E over Mig-19 is more or less just theoritical and can’t really be take advantage of?.
For example: F-5 has longer range radar than Mig-19 but it is not intergrated with AIM-7 so it can’t attack Mig-19 from BVR. And I believe that both aircraft only has rear aspect IR AAM. Same for speed, F-5 has higher top speed, but lower acceleration so it can’t run away from Mig-19, it also doesn’t detect Mig-19 from far enough to use this high speed advantage to increase missile launch range.
Though I vaguely remember that F-5 has RWR and chaff, flares while Mig-19 doesn’t, anyone know about that?

 

[paralay]

The MiG-21 was inferior to the F-5 in dogfight because it had no slats. The aircraft of the previous generation will naturally lose even more

 

[njiiaf]

I believe the F-5 was the better fighter. How much better really depends on which variants we’re talking about.
Both early MiG-19 and F-5A/B variants lacked a radar. Though the MiG also lacked missiles until later variants.
The later MiG-19S and F-5E/F both included radars, but the F-5’s was superior in part due to a larger radome and side mounted air intakes.
F-5s of all variants were considerably faster than the MiG-19; the MiG had a top speed of around 1.3 Mach while the F-5 could theoretically reach 1.6 Mach.
The F-5 also had superior range and payload.

On the other hand, the MiG-19 had an impressive TWR for its time and, as a result, had a superior sustained turn rate and climb rate. The F-5 had excellent aerodynamics, however, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was more than competitive in the ‘slow speed, nose pointing fight’.

I believe engine reliability was a major issue on earlier MiG-19s. They were also quite tricky to fly.
Furthermore, I would take any AIM-9 variant over K-13s.
Edit: The MiG-19 is closer in comparison to the Super Sabre. The F-5 is probably best compared to the MiG-21 and according to this Soviet test pilot, was superior in a dogfight.

Soviet Pilot who test flew captured F-5 against MiG-21, MiG-23 explains why the Tiger beat the Fishbed, Flogger in every engagement - The Aviation Geek Club

Soviet Pilot who test flew captured F-5 against MiG-21, MiG-23 explains why the Tiger beat the Fishbed, Flogger in every engagement

theaviationgeekclub.com

Thank you this is the short of answer I’m looking for.
Anyway, isn’t the superior radar and speed of F-5E over Mig-19 is more or less just theoritical and can’t really be take advantage of?.
For example: F-5 has longer range radar than Mig-19 but it is not intergrated with AIM-7 so it can’t attack Mig-19 from BVR. And I believe that both aircraft only has rear aspect IR AAM. Same for speed, F-5 has higher top speed, but lower acceleration so it can’t run away from Mig-19, it also doesn’t detect Mig-19 from far enough to use this high speed advantage to increase missile launch range.
Though I vaguely remember that F-5 has RWR and chaff, flares while Mig-19 doesn’t, anyone know about that?

Yes for the most part, the radar isn’t really going to make a difference in a 1v1 fight. Perhaps if the aircraft were being vectored towards each other from a long distance, the F-5 pilot will likely have a higher chance of detecting the MiG and can set himself in an advantageous position for the merge. Furthermore, in an bomber intercept mission, particularly in poor-visibility weather conditions, the F-5 will have the advantage.

Later F-5Es were equipped with AIM-9P5s, which had an all-aspect capability. I don’t believe the MiG was ever equipped with an equivalent.

As for speed, the advantage isn’t such that an F-5 would be able to level out from a dogfight and run away from the MiG, but there are certain situations where the F-5 will be able to go supersonic whereas the MiG might struggle. Close to the deck for instance. The MiG-19’s short range didn’t really help here, you didn’t really want to be in afterburner for too long. According to this U.S test pilot:

However, the MiG-19's strongest fault was its extremely short range, as one U.S. test pilot remarked, "after going in full after-burner at low altitude for five minutes, the MiG driver will be looking for a place to land!"

I forgot to mention the RWR and countermeasures. The MiG was never equipped with countermeasures, at least the -P model wasn’t. The F-5, in comparison, had a full complement of chaff and flares. Only later MiG-19 variants were equipped with RWRs but these were very primitive. Definitely inferior to the F-5s.

F-5E:

MiG-19P: (it’s a simulator but you get the idea)

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu2heK3x6zY

 

[F.L.]

F-5s of all variants were considerably faster than the MiG-19; the MiG had a top speed of around 1.3 Mach while the F-5 could theoretically reach 1.6 Mach.

F-5A Freedom fighter top speed was only Mach 1.3, from what I've read.

 

[F.L.]

Furthermore, I would take any AIM-9 variant over K-13s.

The success rate of AIM-9B in Vietnam was only 12%, similar to R-3S.
And most F-5s were often equipped with AIM-9B.

 

[njiiaf]

F-5A Freedom fighter top speed was only Mach 1.3, from what I've read.

Wouldn't doubt it. I'm probably looking at F-5E stats then.

The success rate of AIM-9B in Vietnam was only 12%, similar to R-3S.
And most F-5s were often equipped with AIM-9B.

Yes, the AIM-9B and R-3 were equally poor in that respect. Still, F-5Es had -Ps and P5s to compensate. I know Iranian F-5s were equipped with AIM-9Js during the war. But that was years later. I'm not really sure what else the MiG was equipped with.

 

[F.L.]

I believe that it is not objective to compare the "F-5" and the "MiG-19" because they are two families of aircraft. The first MiG-19 variants are very different from the latest ones.
What is needed is to specify which variants are being compared:
example: F-6C (Pakistani variant) vs F-5E, or MiG-19P vs F-5A...
The Pakistani F-6C can be equipped with very advanced AIM-9s, while the Somali F-6C does not carry missiles...
The variants change a lot, but within the same variant, the difference can be big.

 

[TomcatViP]

In a turn fight, the highly swept wing of the Mig would not have helped much unless in the hands of a very pro-efficient pilot.
The Skothi Tiger was more easy to fly. New graduated pilots would also have had the advantage to do their training on a very similar platform, aggravating the gap b/w inexperienced crew effectiveness.
Indibutably, this would have gradually led to a more professional force for those flying the Tiger against the Mig. It doesn't do all but this is still a decisive aspect during a sustained air campaign.

 

[kaiserd]

The creator of this topic may want to do some more web research.

In terms of timing the MIG-19 is a considerably older aircraft than the F—5A, yet alone the F-5E (the later is at least a decade and a 1/2 newer).

By the time of both the USSR had moved on to the MIG-21 (by the the time of the F-5E they were moving into the MIG-23).

The F-5A timing tallies a bit more with Chinese J-6s. Indeed taking into account the impact of the Cultural Revolution and time for Chinese aviation to somewhat recover may that comparison (including re: the F-5E) would be rather more valid.

 

[BlackBat242]

The thread title says "Vietnam Era".
The first F-5E flew on 11 August 1972.
On 6 April 1973, the 425th TFS at Williams Air Force Base, Arizona, received the first F-5E Tiger II.

On 15 January 1973, all U.S. combat activities in Vietnam were suspended.
All U.S. forces personnel were completely withdrawn by March 1973.

So the F-5E misses possible US service in Vietnam by one month.

Vietnam began receiving F-5Es in 1973 as well (all other foreign buyers began receiving theirs in 1974 and later)... but when South Vietnam was overrun by NVA forces on 30 April 1975, only 27 F-5Es were captured by the communists, with 22 F-5Es escaping Thailand.

 

[martinbayer]

MiG-19 vs F-5 (F-5E??)
Wrong question. Which side has the better tactics and more experienced pilots? WRT the pilots, which side supports their pilots with sufficient flight hours/month to keep sharp? WRT to the aircraft, which side has funded their force and trained their maintainers to support more than a minimal MC rate?

And which side has the discipline to not "get into a knife fight in a phone booth"?

These factors you mentioned probably more important to win a war, but I’m just interested in the technical characteristic of these fighters

Then why don't you just directly inquire about the technical characteristics of those aircraft on this site, or, oh, wait, I have an even better idea, why don't you instead do a direct web search for absolutely newby internet beginners for example on Wikipedia instead?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Because "Secretprojects" is much better than Wikipedia

 

[Ronny]

MiG-19 vs F-5 (F-5E??)
Wrong question. Which side has the better tactics and more experienced pilots? WRT the pilots, which side supports their pilots with sufficient flight hours/month to keep sharp? WRT to the aircraft, which side has funded their force and trained their maintainers to support more than a minimal MC rate?

And which side has the discipline to not "get into a knife fight in a phone booth"?

These factors you mentioned probably more important to win a war, but I’m just interested in the technical characteristic of these fighters

Then why don't you just directly inquire about the technical characteristics of those aircraft on this site, or, oh, wait, I have an even better idea, why don't you instead do a direct web search for absolutely newby internet beginners for example on Wikipedia instead?

Because you can’t really find things like flight manual from wikipedia duh?.
Besides, knowing about technical aspect is one thing, it is also interesting to know why that specific technical aspect make a certain fighter better than the other (basically like njiiaf answer).
Whereas, answer like “oh it depend on tactic and experience” is just lazy. The question isn’t about tactic or how to win a war. It is about the platform.

 

[paralay]

A simple comparison shows the obvious superiority of the MiG-19

F-5E, wing load 630 kg/m2, thrust-to-weight ratio 0.42
MiG-19S, wing load 351 kg/m2, thrust-to-weight ratio 0.74
The sweep of the F-5E wing is 24 degrees, the MiG-19C is 55 degrees

630 kg/m2 : 351 kg/m2 * 0,74 : 0,42 * 24 : 55 = 1.37

37% in favor of the MiG-19S. Of course, it is necessary to take into account as many factors as possible for a more accurate comparison

 

[Ronny]

A simple comparison shows the obvious superiority of the MiG-19

F-5E, wing load 630 kg/m2, thrust-to-weight ratio 0.42
MiG-19S, wing load 351 kg/m2, thrust-to-weight ratio 0.74
The sweep of the F-5E wing is 24 degrees, the MiG-19C is 55 degrees

630 kg/m2 : 351 kg/m2 * 0,74 : 0,42 * 24 : 55 = 1.37

37% in favor of the MiG-19S. Of course, it is necessary to take into account as many factors as possible for a more accurate comparison

Mig-19 indeed seem like a fighter with better STR and acceleration than F-5. I feel like Mig-19 will eat F-5 alive in WVR combat. Maybe F-5 has better ITR?

 

[Ronny]

The creator of this topic may want to do some more web research.
In terms of timing the MIG-19 is a considerably older aircraft than the F—5A, yet alone the F-5E (the later is at least a decade and a 1/2 newer).

I know F-5 is newer than Mig-19, it just seem that from flight simulator such as DCS, mig-19 appear to be much better in air combat (it is a lot easier to use Mig-19 to due F-5 than vice versa), so that why I’m curious about the comparison between them. What would be F-5 strength.

 

[Ronny]

In a turn fight, the highly swept wing of the Mig would not have helped much unless in the hands of a very pro-efficient pilot.

Mig-19 has very high swept wing, but also very low wing loading though, I feel like Mig-19 will behave like a Mig-17 with extremely good T/W

 

[paralay]

On paper, the MiG-21 was almost 2 times superior to the Tiger in terms of thrust-to-weight ratio, speed (about 2M versus 1.6M), rate of climb (225 m/s versus 175 m/s) and in all other dynamic characteristics. The best test pilots, all as one Heroes of the Soviet Union, sat at the controls of the machines. Equal conditions for the start of the battle, the optimal amount of fuel in the tanks, the telemetry systems are on. Take off!
18 battles were fought by Soviet aces, and not once did the MiG-21bis manage to get into the tail of the F-5E. The devil was hiding in the details: a lower specific load on the wing, developed influxes in the root part of the wings, slotted flaps and developed slats - all this gave the F-5E an advantage in close air combat. The "American" was also helped by its original "shark" nose, equipped with vortex generators - such a design significantly increased the stability of the "Tiger" at low speeds, and made it possible to conduct maneuverable air combat at critical angles of attack.
The armament of the small fighter was also initially "sharpened" for maneuvering battles - two built-in automatic guns of 20 mm caliber with 280 rounds of ammunition for each barrel. All this, coupled with excellent visibility from the cockpit, made the Tiger an extremely dangerous opponent in close combat.
Experienced specialists also noted the great survivability of the F-5E, thanks to its twin-engine layout and the absence of wing-mounted fuel tanks - the aircraft could return from a mission with riddled planes.

ÐÑпÑÑание F-5 и A-37 в ÐÐС СССÐ

СовеÑÑÐºÐ°Ñ Â«Ðона 51» «ÐÑиÑелÑÑÑ» пÑибÑли на Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ð°Ð±Ð°Ð·Ñ Ð² ÐÑÑÑбинÑк в болÑÑÐ¸Ñ Ð¿ÑонÑмеÑованнÑÑ ÑÑикаÑ, коÑоÑÑе оÑÑоÑожно ÑгÑÑзили в ...

septus.blogspot.com

 

[Ronny]

On paper, the MiG-21 was almost 2 times superior to the Tiger in terms of thrust-to-weight ratio, speed (about 2M versus 1.6M), rate of climb (225 m/s versus 175 m/s) and in all other dynamic characteristics. The best test pilots, all as one Heroes of the Soviet Union, sat at the controls of the machines. Equal conditions for the start of the battle, the optimal amount of fuel in the tanks, the telemetry systems are on. Take off!
18 battles were fought by Soviet aces, and not once did the MiG-21bis manage to get into the tail of the F-5E. The devil was hiding in the details: a lower specific load on the wing, developed influxes in the root part of the wings, slotted flaps and developed slats - all this gave the F-5E an advantage in close air combat. The "American" was also helped by its original "shark" nose, equipped with vortex generators - such a design significantly increased the stability of the "Tiger" at low speeds, and made it possible to conduct maneuverable air combat at critical angles of attack.
The armament of the small fighter was also initially "sharpened" for maneuvering battles - two built-in automatic guns of 20 mm caliber with 280 rounds of ammunition for each barrel. All this, coupled with excellent visibility from the cockpit, made the Tiger an extremely dangerous opponent in close combat.
Experienced specialists also noted the great survivability of the F-5E, thanks to its twin-engine layout and the absence of wing-mounted fuel tanks - the aircraft could return from a mission with riddled planes.

ÐÑпÑÑание F-5 и A-37 в ÐÐС СССÐ

СовеÑÑÐºÐ°Ñ Â«Ðона 51» «ÐÑиÑелÑÑÑ» пÑибÑли на Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ð°Ð±Ð°Ð·Ñ Ð² ÐÑÑÑбинÑк в болÑÑÐ¸Ñ Ð¿ÑонÑмеÑованнÑÑ ÑÑикаÑ, коÑоÑÑе оÑÑоÑожно ÑгÑÑзили в ...

septus.blogspot.com

Thank you paralay, but isn’t Mig-21 supposed to be an interceptor of that period rather than a pure fighter ?

 

[paralay]

No, the "pure" interceptor was the Su-9 / Su-11

 

[njiiaf]

I know F-5 is newer than Mig-19, it just seem that from flight simulator such as DCS, mig-19 appear to be much better in air combat (it is a lot easier to use Mig-19 to due F-5 than vice versa), so that why I’m curious about the comparison between them. What would be F-5 strength.

Just keep in mind, the F-5E in DCS is modeled incorrectly. The RWR doesn’t work properly, the radar is incorrect, the gunsight doesn’t accurately calculate lead, the gun dispersion is off, the aircraft bleeds energy too quickly in turns and doesn’t match its E-M diagrams. Also some of its instruments like the ADI are bugged and won’t show accurate data in flight.
So DCS isn’t really a good depiction of the F-5E’s capabilities.

 

[F.L.]

Moreover, if the comparison is VPAF "Farmer" Vs RVAF "Freedom Fighter/Tiger" it should be taken into account that the VPAF did not operate Soviet-built MiG-19s but Chinese-built J-6s.
However, the J-6 (basic) is similar, but not identical to the Mig-19S and slightly superior, as far as I know.

 

[F.L.]

Just another consideration, the MiG-19 (three 30mm cannons) has a much greater "punch" than the F-5 (Two 20mm cannons) any version.

 

[kaiserd]

And, rather critically to this topic, both designs were quite short range (the F-5A potentially even shorter range than the MIG-19, which with drop tanks and laying off the afterburner could handily out range early MIG-21s) I would have to double check but I presume South Vietnam’s F-5s largely stuck to their side of their border and never even attempted deep penetrations into the North (which they didn’t have the range for anyway).
And North Vietnams MIGs (and J-6s) seldom ventured much further south than Hanoi and surrounding industrial areas.
Hence were these aircraft even in mutual range of each other and even just theoretically able to engage each other?

 

[Ronny]

Moreover, if the comparison is VPAF "Farmer" Vs RVAF "Freedom Fighter/Tiger" it should be taken into account that the VPAF did not operate Soviet-built MiG-19s but Chinese-built J-6s.
However, the J-6 (basic) is similar, but not identical to the Mig-19S and slightly superior, as far as I know.

What are the advantage of J-6 over Mig-19s specifically?

, the aircraft bleeds energy too quickly in turns and doesn’t match its E-M diagrams. .

Can you give a more detail example about this

 

[Ronny]

No, the "pure" interceptor was the Su-9 / Su-11

Not gonna lie, I don’t even know that Su-9, Su-11 exist, feel like Mig-21 completely over shadow them. Kind of like F-101, F-102 get completely overshadowed.

 

[paralay]

I entered the MiG-19P and F-5E in the table and compared their combat effectiveness. Tiger 2 has an 18% advantage in close air combat

In the upper left corner, you can switch the language to English http://www.paralay.ru/paralay_tab.xls

 

[njiiaf]

, the aircraft bleeds energy too quickly in turns and doesn’t match its E-M diagrams. .

Can you give a more detail example about this

From the DCS forums.

I have been a long-time lurker on the forms but hesitant to join under the advisement of some members of the DCS community. I am posting to report a bug with the F-5 flight model, primarily, in regards to sustained high AOA and instantaneous turn rates. To be brief, the DCS F-5 slows down too rapidly when maneuvering in high AOA pulls or when sustained high AOA maneuvering is required. At 350 to 400 knots the F-5 should be able to maintain a continuous ~4.3-4.8 Gs with a turn radius of ~5000 feet at 5000 feet MSL. (conditions would be 2 Aim 9P5, no wing or cl stores and full fuel at a weight of ~13,500 pounds). This was normal for the F-5E-3 pre Open Beta 2.5.4.28090, however at some point when the textures were broken it feels as if the drag coefficient has increased slightly and could be described as if the aircraft was flying through Jell-O. The Aim-9P5 has also been affected with tacviews from pre 28090 showing the missiles were able to hold their energy better. The difference between Pre 28090 and post 28090 is about a 5% performance decrease in acceleration, climb, level speed and turn performance of both the F-5E-3 and the Aim-9P5. While I don’t expect the DCS F-5 to match the real F-5, I do expect a finished module to remain constant in its performance.


See combat performance section FA8 with turn performance starting at page 410. http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/e.../t-o-1f-5e-1-f-5e-flight-manual.html#download

+1



You seem to get punished a lot more in the F-5 than anything else when doing BFM. It's pretty frustrating especially when compared to the AI F-5 SFM. Only had 1 ride in the T-38 many moons ago, but I remember it regaining speed way faster than what's currently in game (acknowledging F-5 and T-38 are different airplanes).



As a little extra data point, a guy that flew multiple fighters and currently flys the T-38 recently did a video and he mentions in passing that the sim seems to have more drag than it should while flying the break. Take that FWIW.

View: https://youtu.be/MzOqE_-EYio?t=1338

 

[datafuser]

In March 1973, an air force colonel testified that " But in the combat arena this airplane (F-5E) will take the Mig-21 with a substantial probability of success, like a plus 0.2 or something like that, in a gaming situation. "

 

[datafuser]

From a hearing on 20 July 1972.

 

[Ronny]

In March 1973, an air force colonel testified that " But in the combat arena this airplane (F-5E) will take the Mig-21 with a substantial probability of success, like a plus 0.2 or something like that, in a gaming situation. "

View attachment 695618

I vaguely recalled reading somewhere that Mig-17 and Mig-19 were considered more useful than Mig-21 in Vietnam war since the early missile was not very reliable and Mig-21 turn performance is not very good.

 

[paralay]

In March 1973, an air force colonel testified that " But in the combat arena this airplane (F-5E) will take the Mig-21 with a substantial probability of success, like a plus 0.2 or something like that, in a gaming situation. "

For this pair, the table gives exactly two times less, the most perfect MiG-21SMT loses 9.9 %

 

[datafuser]

In March 1973, an air force colonel testified that " But in the combat arena this airplane (F-5E) will take the Mig-21 with a substantial probability of success, like a plus 0.2 or something like that, in a gaming situation. "

For this pair, the table gives exactly two times less, the most perfect MiG-21SMT loses 9.9 %

When the colonel said that 50 years ago, it must have been against earlier MiG-21 versions and probably by TAC AVENGER program.

Below is from the January 1968 issue of the Air Force magazine.

 

[Ronny]

I found the turn rate chart for F-5A and F-5E and even Mirage III, unfortunately, no luck finding anything related to Mig-19.
It is surprising but F-5A can sustain turn better than F-5E while F-5E has better ITR. (I thought it would be opposite)