Messerschmitt Me 309/509 Projects & Prototypes

[Wurger]

hello ,

does anyone knows about other proposed Me309 versions? I post here the Me309Z/Me609( taken from "Geheimprojekte der Luftwaffe", volume 3, by Herwig/Rode ), a "zerstoerer" and high-speed bomber.

 

[toura]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

hello wurger
something at "www.luft 46.com
but certainly you know
bye

 

[Justo Miranda]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

Please see

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3497.0/highlight,blind.html

 

[Wurger]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

Hi Toura ,

yes, I already knew it from Luft`46 site. Some months ago in "Le Fana de L`aviation" there were a full article on this interesting little fighter, who came close to series production, but no allusion to advanced versions.

Wow , I just saw what Justo have posted. A flush fuselage Me 309? What was its intended role? The text tells about another version. Can you please shed more on this, Justo? Thanks for sharing

 

[toura]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

hello Wurger.
I know the me 309 from V1 to V4
I know the flush fuselage only by the same source than you
and i've see about an other study, a Me 309 without tricycle undercarriage
and with winglet ????
Bye

 

[Wurger]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

Hi toura and Justo ,

any chance of posting images relating those projected "birds"? Cheers.

 

[toura]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

hello Wurger
I've no scanner but i've a photo !
If no answer, with your adress, Icould send you a copy
Bye

 

[Justo Miranda]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

sorry unknown source ...

 

[Justo Miranda]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

Found source as "Luftahrt-Lexicon 8140-100-2" pp 3983

 

[frank]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions


I suppose the Me 509 could be considered a mid-engined variant of the 309, couldn't it?



ote author=Wurger link=topic=5609.msg45013#msg45013 date=1226079132]
hello ,

does anyone knows about other proposed Me309 versions? I post here the Me309Z/Me609( taken from "Geheimprojekte der Luftwaffe", volume 3, by Herwig/Rode ), a "zerstoerer" and high-speed bomber.
[/quote]

 

[blackkite]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

Hi! Me309V1 and V4.
Me309 had a retractable radiator and a pressurized cabin.

Me309 troubles were...
①Shimmy
②Over heat
③Landing was very hard.(rapid nose down at reverse propeller pitch when decrease landing speed)
④Require heavy force to move rudder
⑤Poor directional stability at take off run and high speed straight flight
⑥Poor maneuverability compared with Bf109G

This fighter seems to have been the airplane which doesn't become true at all.
What is the pod on the wing?
I can't find this pod in any picture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_309

(cutaway was replaced with higher res version posted by johnbr)

 

[blackkite]

Hi Me509. Midship engine same as recent racing car!! Me509 looks like Keiun.
Radiator concept is same as Me309.
Me509 is good design except heavy weight long propeller shaft. So...

(a cut-away drawing can be found here https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,29902.msg242181.html#msg242181 )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_509

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCJu1dZ0jic

 

[sienar]

Didn't a good number of the lippisch designs occur without the knowledge of Willy himself?

And when some of these designs ended up in competition with his own he was furious?

 

[windswords]

Hi Me509. Midship engine same as recent racing car!! Me509 looks like Keiun.

As soon as I saw the images and before I read your saying it looks like the R2Y1 Keiun, I had the same thought exactly! A true example of the saying "form follows function".

 

[blackkite]

Hi Me509. Midship engine same as recent racing car!! Me509 looks like Keiun.

As soon as I saw the images and before I read your saying it looks like the R2Y1 Keiun, I had the same thought exactly! A true example of the saying "form follows function".

Yes I think so. I also think that.....
Messerschmitt tried to develop Me509 fighter may be because Messerschmitt was estimating an achievement in the actual fighting of bell P-39 and P-63.
Specifications (as designed)
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 9.94 m (32 ft 7 in)
Wingspan: 11.27 m (37 ft)
Height: 3.98 m (13 ft 1 in)
Powerplant: 1 × Daimler-Benz DB 605B, 1,085 kW (1,455 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 760 km/h (472 mph)
Armament
Guns: 2 × 13 mm (.51 in) MG 131 machine guns
2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons

High speed fighter with pressurized cockpit!!
Perhaps Messerschmitt thought that this nose wheel landing system might be works well because of light nose weight.
Rerturn match of Me309 failure. ;D Some document says that Me509 was a delivative of Me309.
I feel that Me509's engine, propeller,radiator, spinner, wing, horizontal tail stabilizer and landing gear were almost same as Me309's one.
Any original drawing or document survived still now?

http://www.hyperscale.com/2013/galleries/me50948rs_1.htm

 

[blackkite]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

Hi! No problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4800EMjf_m4

 

[Stargazer]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

There were two types of Me209 fighter.

Isn't this a topic about the Me 309? Don't we have a topic elsewhere on the Me 209 already? Just asking.

 

[hesham]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

Hi,

was that Messerschmitt Me.309 XIII/245 a real version or not ?.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/148154-classic-plane-cpm-67-messerschmitt-me-309-xiii-245-and-messerschmitt-me-509

 

[Jemiba]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

.....
was that Messerschmitt Me.309 XIII/245 a real version or not ?
...

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5609.msg45082.html#msg45082

 

[hesham]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

.....
was that Messerschmitt Me.309 XIII/245 a real version or not ?
...

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5609.msg45082.html#msg45082

Thanks.

 

[airman]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

I suppose that Messerchmitt 309 was inspired by North American P-51 Mustang !

 

[sienar]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

by way of LEMB, a photo of the cockpit of the 309

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaffe-Flugzeug-Me-309-GE-CU-am-16-7-1942-/381919595908

 

[fightingirish]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

A very interesting article about the Messerschmitt Me 309 is published in the August 2017 issue of the German magazine Klassiker der Luftfahrt. IMHO some unseen new pictures of the the flight tests are featured in this article.
You can also buy and download the article at their website.
Link: http://www.klassiker-der-luftfahrt.de/geschichte/flugzeuge/messerschmitt-me-309-die-letzte-09/734200/paidattachment

 

[sienar]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

A very interesting article about the Messerschmitt Me 309 is published in the August 2017 issue of the German magazine Klassiker der Luftfahrt. IMHO some unseen new pictures of the the flight tests are featured in this article.
You can also buy and download the article at their website.
Link: http://www.klassiker-der-luftfahrt.de/geschichte/flugzeuge/messerschmitt-me-309-die-letzte-09/734200/paidattachment

Thanks for the recommendation. This issue includes and original drawing that appears to show the new sheet metal work required for the twin design.

 

[hesham]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

A very interesting article about the Messerschmitt Me 309 is published in the August 2017 issue of the German magazine Klassiker der Luftfahrt. IMHO some unseen new pictures of the the flight tests are featured in this article.
You can also buy and download the article at their website.
Link: http://www.klassiker-der-luftfahrt.de/geschichte/flugzeuge/messerschmitt-me-309-die-letzte-09/734200/paidattachment

Thanks for the recommendation. This issue includes and original drawing that appears to show the new sheet metal work required for the twin design.

As I expected and displayed before in anther topic,it was a real Project.

 

[sienar]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

There was a swept wing derivative of the 309 that was expected to have a 30% increase in top speed. Work on this design was farmed out to Caudron, who also took over wind tunnel testing, in late 42.

 

[GTX]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

There was a swept wing derivative of the 309 that was expected to have a 30% increase in top speed. Work on this design was farmed out to Caudron, who also took over wind tunnel testing, in late 42.

Anymore details?

 

[sienar]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

Sorry, that's all Die Deutsche Luftfahrt; Willy Messerschmitt has to say about it

 

[sienar]

Re: Messerschmitt Me 309 versions

Ejection seat for the 309v1

Source: Die Deutsche Luftfahrt; Willy Messerschmitt

 

[sgeorges4]

Any real document regarding the me 509?

 

[sienar]

.

 

[lippischh]

Is this "night fighter" version of the Me 609 real ?

 

[newsdeskdan]

Is this "night fighter" version of the Me 609 real ?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Me 609 was a designation given to production-ready Me 262s towards the end of the war - not the twin-fuselage Me 309. This is referred to in period documents as the Me 309 Zw. The Me 309 Zw itself was a short-lived fast bomber design and it seems unlikely that it ever reached the stage of someone deciding to see how it would look as a night fighter. It's not impossible, but it is improbable.

 

[lippischh]

Is this "night fighter" version of the Me 609 real ?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Me 609 was a designation given to production-ready Me 262s towards the end of the war - not the twin-fuselage Me 309. This is referred to in period documents as the Me 309 Zw. The Me 309 Zw itself was a short-lived fast bomber design and it seems unlikely that it ever reached the stage of someone deciding to see how it would look as a night fighter. It's not impossible, but it is improbable.

Thank you for your valuable input !

 

[newsdeskdan]

Is this "night fighter" version of the Me 609 real ?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Me 609 was a designation given to production-ready Me 262s towards the end of the war - not the twin-fuselage Me 309. This is referred to in period documents as the Me 309 Zw. The Me 309 Zw itself was a short-lived fast bomber design and it seems unlikely that it ever reached the stage of someone deciding to see how it would look as a night fighter. It's not impossible, but it is improbable.

Thank you for your valuable input !

It would be great if, when I point out the improbability of some of these designs, someone could just pop up with the original drawing or documentation to contradict me and prove that they really did exist, and that the models are based on sound historical fact. I also wish that when I was seeking out Me 609 documentation, it had indeed turned out to show the twin-fuselage Me 309. But... I've found half a dozen Me 609 documents now and they've all been about the Me 262. It's such a shame that such cool models are just (seemingly) based on 'speculation'.

 

[hesham]

It would be great if, when I point out the improbability of some of these designs, someone could just pop up with the original drawing or documentation to contradict me and prove that they really did exist, and that the models are based on sound historical fact. I also wish that when I was seeking out Me 609 documentation, it had indeed turned out to show the twin-fuselage Me 309. But... I've found half a dozen Me 609 documents now and they've all been about the Me 262. It's such a shame that such cool models are just (seemingly) based on 'speculation'.

Can you send a drawings from them Dan,please.

 

[newsdeskdan]

It would be great if, when I point out the improbability of some of these designs, someone could just pop up with the original drawing or documentation to contradict me and prove that they really did exist, and that the models are based on sound historical fact. I also wish that when I was seeking out Me 609 documentation, it had indeed turned out to show the twin-fuselage Me 309. But... I've found half a dozen Me 609 documents now and they've all been about the Me 262. It's such a shame that such cool models are just (seemingly) based on 'speculation'.

Can you send a drawings from them Dan,please.

For what?

 

[newsdeskdan]

.

Re-draw versus Messerschmitt original drawing.

 

[hesham]

From; Messerschmitt "0-Nine" Gallery"

 

[Grzesio]

By the way - is the "Me 509" a real project or a postwar fake?