Messerschmitt Me 163 origins, developments and projects

[hesham]

Hi,

http://maquetland.com/v2/index.php?page=vision&id=924

 

[redstar72]

Interesting block of pictures - thank you!
But do you really think that I-270 has any connection to 163 family?

 

[Michel Van]

that mix powered Me163b is new to me !


Background
during the war Lippsich and others proposed to replace the Walter rocket engine by jet engine
but RLM refused this and prefer twin Jet engine aircraft like Me262 (because poor quality of first jet-engine)


instead to bug-out the Me 163 series, RLM insist on construction of complete new aircraft: the Me 263
with twin rocket engine, landing gear, pressurized cockpit
Only to take then the project from Messerschmitt away because "You to busy to build Me 109 fighter and Me 262 Bomber"
and give the program to Junkers, who work on own series of EF 126 interceptors with pulse-jet engine and EF 127 with Walter rocket engine...


The perfect example how RLM caused chaos during the War....

 

[Triton]

The item has been re-listed:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=278157069

You can buy it now for $685,000.00

 

[Stargazer]

But do you really think that I-270 has any connection to 163 family?

Answer to this question can be found in the following topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18141.0

 

[hesham]

From Flugzeug 6/1991,


here is two drawings to Messerschmitt Me.163 S,the first shows the former version with
smaller rear cabin and the second reflects the larger rear cabin as a converted version.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Jemiba,


but if you add the Projects,may be we can transfer it to Early Aircraft Projects section.

 

[pathology_doc]

A twin-seat 163! Wow, now you can dissolve TWICE as many pilots in residual propellant as before!


The perfect example how RLM caused chaos during the War....


[/size]Yep. It's bad enough when your manufacturers are merely struggling to outdo each other trying to sell airplanes. It's worse when everybody is also kissing political posterior (and some are doing it better than others) and the procurement process is something less than honest, well-intentioned and (usually) well-organised. e.g. We can debate till the end of days whether having a strategic bombing arm after 1941 would actually have helped Germany and whether/what the Allied campaign actually achieved, but if the He177 was Germany's Avro Manchester (albeit a much more sophisticated one), at least Avro managed to cough up their four-engined version in sufficient time and quantity to make a material difference. Poor old Heinkel, on the other hand...

 

[Arjen]

A twin-seat 163! Wow, now you can dissolve TWICE as many pilots in residual propellant as before!

The Me 163S lost its rocket motor and fuel to make room for a second seat.

It's bad enough when your manufacturers are merely struggling to outdo each other trying to sell airplanes. It's worse when everybody is also kissing political posterior (and some are doing it better than others) and the procurement process is something less than honest, well-intentioned and (usually) well-organised.

Worse, well...
[quote author=Napoléon Bonaparte]N'interrompez jamais un ennemi qui est en train de faire une erreur[/quote]

 

[hesham]

Nice hypothetical artist drawing to Me.163;

http://archive.aviationweek.com/image/spread/19441023/4/2

 

[lippischh]

Small drawing featuring a Me 163 fitted with a V-tail and a parachute brake compartment.

Source : http://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/me-163-v-tail.html

 

[edwest4]

A twin-seat 163! Wow, now you can dissolve TWICE as many pilots in residual propellant as before!


The perfect example how RLM caused chaos during the War....


[/size]Yep. It's bad enough when your manufacturers are merely struggling to outdo each other trying to sell airplanes. It's worse when everybody is also kissing political posterior (and some are doing it better than others) and the procurement process is something less than honest, well-intentioned and (usually) well-organised. e.g. We can debate till the end of days whether having a strategic bombing arm after 1941 would actually have helped Germany and whether/what the Allied campaign actually achieved, but if the He177 was Germany's Avro Manchester (albeit a much more sophisticated one), at least Avro managed to cough up their four-engined version in sufficient time and quantity to make a material difference. Poor old Heinkel, on the other hand...

A very wrong interpretation. The pilot wore a flame retardant suit.

 

[hesham]

Small drawing featuring a Me 163 fitted with a V-tail and a parachute brake compartment.

Source : http://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/me-163-v-tail.html

My dear Hamza,

was it a real concept ?.

 

[lippischh]

The Me 163 with a V-tail was a real concept ( see Luftwaffe Secret Designs of the Third Reich by Dan Sharp - p.117). I am not sure about this one tho, with the parachute brake.

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a tangent:

 

[hesham]

From this Polish book.

 

[riggerrob]

Why the Polish interest in Me-rocket interceptors?
Were any built in Poland?
Did any fly over Poland?

 

[Dilandu]

Why the Polish interest in Me-rocket interceptors?

Er, because Polish author became interested in this historical matter?

Were any built in Poland?

As far as I know - no, they were build initially in Regensburg, and later in Stuttgart-Böblingen.

Did any fly over Poland?

Yes. One group was stationed in Stettin, to protect the synthetic fuel factory in Poltz.

 

[Grzesio]

Were any built in Poland?

Yes. One group was stationed in Stettin, to protect the synthetic fuel factory in Poltz.

There were more Me 163 locations in the present Poland.
3. and 4./JG 400 stationed in Stargard-Kluetzow (Kluczewo) and 7./JG 400 in Stettin-Altdamm (Szczecin-Dąbie). Although no powered flights were performed due to lack of fuel.
Then, acceptance flights of new Me 163s were conducted at Udetfeld (Mierzęcice) in the autumn of 1944.
Ergaenzungsstaffel 400 was formed at Udetfeld in late July 1944.
V/(Ergaenzungs)JG 2 with 13. i 14 squadrons was formed at Udefeld in the autumn of 1944, which could also be later stationed in Sprottau (Szprotawa) and Brieg (Brzeg). For example, the well known picture of the Me 163 AV 10 armed with R 4/M rockets is taken at Udetfeld.
And there was a HWK rocket engine factory in Beerberg (Baworowa).

As far as the book is concerned, it's not too bad, but also not too impressive - for example the drawing of a Me 163 B with SG 500 is a complete fiction.

 

[Jemiba]

As far as the book is concerned, it's not too bad, but also not too impressive - for example the drawing of a Me 163 B with SG 500 is a complete fiction.

As you mention it as an example, it seems not to be the one and only case, where given details may be a bit doubtful ...
In this case, perhaps there was a kind of a source, though it's a bit hard, to assess it. In his book "Raketenjäger Me 163", the author,
Mano Ziegler, himself pilot on the Me 163 during the war, mentions modifications and tests with a Me 163B and a vertically firing
armament, though not giving a designation. As a contemporary witness, who even was directly involved in the development of the
Me 163, that could actually carry some weight, but his book is more of a novel, than a specialist book...

 

[Grzesio]

As you mention it as an example, it seems not to be the one and only case, where given details may be a bit doubtful ...

Sure, for example these precise plans of the Me 163 D (V 18) are a complete "what if". The aircraft was not even officially designated as the Me 163 D, just Me 163 V18 Umbaumaschine.
Vertical armament is also mentioned by Spaete in his "Top Secret Bird", although, as far as I remember, according to the book, eyewitnesses observed, B-17 was hit with the SG 500 and exploded - what was not corroborated by recent research.
There's also a funny story about Ziegler in Spaete's book. A soldier came to Spaete (who was the unit's commander then), complaining, someone was seen sneaking into female personnel quarters at night and Ziegler was gossiping the following day, it was this soldier. But the soldied stated, it was actually Ziegler, not him.

 

[hesham]

What was this ?.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Lippisch P.15​

The systematic bombing of the German industry forced the decentralisation of the aeronautical production in multitude of small plants and workshops that manufactured components.

The chaos produced in the Reich transportation systems during the last months of the war, broke the ordered production schedule up: some spare parts were scarce, others did not arrive on time to the assembly lines and there was overstock of others.

In March 1945 the LFA-Wien decided to make the most of the situation by designing the Frankestein airplanes, built with the surplus parts. The same panic fighter concept used in the design of the North American Fisher P.75 and the Boomerang in Australia.

The Volksjäger of Heinkel, conceived as a fighter cheap to manufacture in large quantities and easy to be operated by young inexperienced pilots, was to be a costly failure. The wooden wing was wrongly designed, the landing speed was excessive, the twin tailfin generated too much drag, penalising performances, and the fuselage design did not allow the installation of heavy guns.

On 4 March 1946, the Lippisch design team proposed to the OKL to create a special assembly centre in the Wiener Neustadt Works (WNF) destined to the manufacturing of the P.15 fighter Diana. It was an airplane easy to operate, as stable at low speed as the Komet, able to transport 30 mm guns and to fly faster and higher than the He 162, although being powered by the same engine.

The P.15 used the frontal three quarters of the He 162 fuselage - there was an excess of production in the Khala subterranean complex- the wooden wings of a Me 163 B –from which there were many spares- the tailfin of a Junkers 248, the electronics of a Me 262 and the undercarriage of Salamander. The WNF just should build the central section of the wing, the air intakes and the internal air ducts. The installed engine could be a Jumo 004, a BMW 003 or one of the new HeS 011.

Wind tunnel tests made with a 1:25 scale model proved that the airplane was stable up to a critical number of 0.84 Mach. The little experiment served to prove the concept was effective and Lippisch used it again for the design of the transoceanic version (P.15, 3 March 1945) that combines different elements used in the Messerschmitt projects on which Lippisch had cooperated.

The 52º swept wing was an adaptation from the one at the Me P1112 S/2 (3 March 1945) the air intakes were based on the LP13 and Me P1092 (16 July 1943) whereas the tailfin and the canopy came from the LP14 and LP12 respectively. The air came from the turbojet through the S shaped pipes that surrounded the cockpit, passing across the wing roots. The armament was reduced to just two MK 108/30 cannon in the wing roots and the electronic equipment would be the same than the one developed for the Ju 248.

Technical data Lippisch P.15 Diana (4 April 1945)​

Type single seat jet fighter

Wings wood structure and cladding, 23º swept, aspect ratio 5:1

Fuselage metallic structure and cladding, non-pressurised cockpit, Heinkel Kartusche ejector seat

Landing gear tricycle type, from the He 162

Engine one Junkers Jumo 004 or one BMW 003 rated at 800 kp or one HeS 011 rated at 1,300 kp static thrust.

Fuel tanks in the fuselage, behind the pilot

Armament two MK 108/30 cannons in the wing roots and two MG 151/20 cannon in the nose

Wingspan 10.08 m

Length 6.40 m

Wing area 20 sq.m

Max. speed (with HeS 011) Mach 0.84

Endurance (with HeS 011) 45 min

Technical data Lippisch P.15 (3 March 1945)​

Type transonic jet fighter

Wings 52º swept back and a 7º thickness/chord ratio, metallic structure and cladding

Fuselage integrated in the wing, pressurised cockpit, metallic structure and cladding,

Landing gear tricycle type, based on the Messerschmitt P1112 S/2 one

Engine one HeS 011 turbojet of 1,290 kp thrust.

Fuel tanks two in the wings

Armament two MK 108 cannons of 30 mm in the wing roots

Wingspan 7.80 m

Length 8.10 m

Height 2.90 m

Wing area 22 sq.m

Max. speed Mach 1

 

[newsdeskdan]

On 4 March 1946, the Lippisch design team proposed to the OKL to create a special assembly centre in the Wiener Neustadt Works (WNF) destined to the manufacturing of the P.15 fighter Diana. It was an airplane easy to operate, as stable at low speed as the Komet, able to transport 30 mm guns and to fly faster and higher than the He 162, although being powered by the same engine.

The P.15 used the frontal three quarters of the He 162 fuselage - there was an excess of production in the Khala subterranean complex- the wooden wings of a Me 163 B –from which there were many spares- the tailfin of a Junkers 248, the electronics of a Me 262 and the undercarriage of Salamander. The WNF just should build the central section of the wing, the air intakes and the internal air ducts. The installed engine could be a Jumo 004, a BMW 003 or one of the new HeS 011.

Wind tunnel tests made with a 1:25 scale model proved that the airplane was stable up to a critical number of 0.84 Mach. The little experiment served to prove the concept was effective and Lippisch used it again for the design of the transoceanic version (P.15, 3 March 1945) that combines different elements used in the Messerschmitt projects on which Lippisch had cooperated.

The 52º swept wing was an adaptation from the one at the Me P1112 S/2 (3 March 1945) the air intakes were based on the LP13 and Me P1092 (16 July 1943) whereas the tailfin and the canopy came from the LP14 and LP12 respectively. The air came from the turbojet through the S shaped pipes that surrounded the cockpit, passing across the wing roots. The armament was reduced to just two MK 108/30 cannon in the wing roots and the electronic equipment would be the same than the one developed for the Ju 248.

I don't think so.

On p106 of Ein Dreieck Fliegt - Die Entwicklung der Delta-Flugzeuge bis 1945, written by Alexander Lippisch himself and published in 1976, he writes: "Bei einem Besuch des Oberst Knemeyer in Wien wurde noch ein Projekt fuer einen Strahljaeger P 15 (Abb. 92) diskutiert, welcher aus vorhandenen Bauteilen anderer Jaeger zusammengesetzt werden, diese aber in Leistung und Zuverlaessigkeit uebertreffen sollte. Ausgangspunkte der Diskussion waren naemlich die Tatsachen, dass einerseits die Rakententriebwerke der Me 163 noch keineswegs einen auch nur annaehernd betriebssicheren Reifegrad erreicht hatten, andererseits die in einer Blitzaktion geschaffenen 'Volksjaeger' He 162 weder in Punkto Reichweite, noch in den Flugeigenschaften ganz befriedigten. Das Projekt P 15 'Diana' sollte daher das Flugwerk der Me 163 C, die Kanzel der He 162 und einen abgeaenderten Rumpf (mit Bugradfahrwerk und Strahltriebwerk) der Ju 248 bekommen. Auch dieses Projekt ist nicht ueber die ersten Entwurfsarbeiten hinausgekommen."

Leaving aside Lippisch's own period description of the project, 'Flugtechnische Grundlagen fuer Projekt P 15 "Diana"', dated March 4, 1945, Lippisch's account above contradicts much of what appears in post #8 of this thread.
1. The Lippisch design team did not propose to the OKL to create a special assembly centre in the Wiener Neustadt Works destined to the manufacturing of the P.15 fighter Diana. The idea came up when Obert Siegfried Knemeyer visited Lippisch in Vienna. I presume the '1946' is a typo and there is no dot in 'P 15'.
2. The P 15 was not designed to be easy to operate, stable, able to transport 30mm guns or fly faster and higher than the He 162. It primarily needed to be safer than the Me 163 and to have greater range than the He 162.
3. The wings were from the Me 163 C, not the Me 163 B. The fuselage was largely bespoke. According to 'Flugtechnische Grundlagen fuer Projekt P 15 "Diana"', the tailfin was from the Me 163 B, not the Ju 248. The undercarriage was from the He 162 or Me 109 G and no Me 262 components were to be used. Lippisch's period document, confusingly gives the engine as "He S 11 (BMW)". His 1976 account doesn't say what engine would be specified. No mention of the Jumo 004 anywhere.
4. Lippisch himself says the project did not go beyond the first designs. No wind tunnel tests, no 'transoceanic version', nothing from the P 1112, nothing from whatever the 'LP13' is supposed to be (presumably you mean the P 13?), nothing from the P 1092, nothing from the 'LP14', nothing from the 'LP12'. No S-shaped pipes. No details of armament are given in either the March 4, 1945, document or in either of Lippisch's 1976 accounts. There are no details of any electronic equipment given either.

The detail about the LFA, the scale model and WNF comes from Walter Schick's book Luftwaffe Secret Projects Fighters 1939-1945, published in 1997 (originally published in German in 1996 as Geheimprojekte der Luftwaffe Bd. 1 Jagdflugzeuge 1939-45 - still a year after Schick's death). Schick got the detail about Knemeyer's visit correct - so why leave that bit out? On the LFA, the model and the WNF, he writes: "The LFA in Vienna constructed a 1:25 scale model, after which it was planned for the Wiener Neustadt Aircraft Works (WNF) to commence series production as quickly as possible." The origin of this detail is unknown - Lippisch doesn't mention it in Eindreieck Fliegt or his other book of 1976 - Erinnerungen. In the latter, his says that the P 15 only got as far as sketches. How likely is it that the P 15 was planned for production when there were no blueprints, no testing had been done, there were no prototypes, raw materials were running out, there was little remaining fuel etc. etc. Not to mention the Soviet armies approaching Vienna - which would force Lippisch to leave within a few weeks of writing his P 15 description.
For anyone who's interested, here is the first page of Lippisch's own description of the P 15, dated March 4, 1945: