Max Holste MH.10 and MH.20
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Hi,
of course we know Max Holste MH-20 single seat low-mid-wing racer
aircraft,and it was actually built,there is a project derivative of MH-20
as two seat trainer version,can anybody imagine what was this aircraft
form ?.
Source, Trait d'Union issue 215
From Internet a 3-view to MH-20 racer aircraft.
of course we know Max Holste MH-20 single seat low-mid-wing racer
aircraft,and it was actually built,there is a project derivative of MH-20
as two seat trainer version,can anybody imagine what was this aircraft
form ?.
Source, Trait d'Union issue 215
From Internet a 3-view to MH-20 racer aircraft.
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Imagine ? Yes, that's easy ! The second cockpit probably would have been further forward,
as further aft may have created problems with the CG. Behind the engine there usually was a
fuel tank, by decreasing its volume, there would have been room for second cockpit .
But knowing without further data ? No, of course !
as further aft may have created problems with the CG. Behind the engine there usually was a
fuel tank, by decreasing its volume, there would have been room for second cockpit .
But knowing without further data ? No, of course !
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Hi,
the designer max Holste had created many aircraft and projects,before MH-20,
he designed a single seat racer monoplane,powered by 100 hp engine and
capable reach 300 km/h speed,it was never built.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554700f/f7.image
the designer max Holste had created many aircraft and projects,before MH-20,
he designed a single seat racer monoplane,powered by 100 hp engine and
capable reach 300 km/h speed,it was never built.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554700f/f7.image
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patvig
ACCESS: Confidential
Was'nt it MH-10 ?
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Squinting at the text in that Les Ailes article, it reads: "Celui-ci, c'est le type 20." So, the drawing is actually an early representation of the MH-20 not the MH-10. (BTW, Holste goes on to say that this is his 20th design but only the third design actually built.)
My puzzle is: What engine was originally to power this racer? The MH-20 flew with a 400 hp Régnier 12Hoo powerplant. But the Les Ailes drawing seems to show a vertically-opposed engine.
My puzzle is: What engine was originally to power this racer? The MH-20 flew with a 400 hp Régnier 12Hoo powerplant. But the Les Ailes drawing seems to show a vertically-opposed engine.
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Apophenia said:Squinting at the text in that Les Ailes article, it reads: "Celui-ci, c'est le type 20." So, the drawing is actually an early representation of the MH-20 not the MH-10. (BTW, Holste goes on to say that this is his 20th design but only the third design actually built.)
My puzzle is: What engine was originally to power this racer? The MH-20 flew with a 400 hp Régnier 12Hoo powerplant. But the Les Ailes drawing seems to show a vertically-opposed engine.
My dear Apophenia,
I think the Ailes magazine spoke about the aircraft before MH-20,which was also a
racer aircraft,or MH-10,and its motor explain it was MH-10 and in Trait d'Union magazine,
the MH-10 may be led to developed a single seat push-pull twin engined fighter project,
which consider a mystery in Max Holste series.
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Toura: Thanks for the artwork -- that upper scoop helps, in part, to explain the confusing cowling in the 3-view drawing in Les Ailes.
The photo of the MH-20 model published in Les Ailes (attached) is slightly different again.
Hesham: Interesting. Was the reference to the engine of the MH-10 in this article or another article in Les Ailes?
The photo of the MH-20 model published in Les Ailes (attached) is slightly different again.
Hesham: Interesting. Was the reference to the engine of the MH-10 in this article or another article in Les Ailes?
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Hi,
The main sources about Max Holste are the book Les avions Max Holste by Delarue and the article by Claveau in Trait d'Union no.215, with minor additions in no.218.
According to Delarue, the first aircraft built by Max Holste was a two-seat low-wing monoplane built in 1934 with 95hp engine, which never flew. This is probably the aircraft described by Claveau as a "1933 two-seat trainer".
After that, Claveau mentions a wooden single-seat monoplane racer, date unknown, with Régnier 95hp engine. He quotes an earlier article (1978) by Bardou saying that this wooden racer was called MH.10. (Though the aircraft is described as a racer in those sources, I don't think that it seriously could compete in any contemporary French race with a 95hp engine.)
In Les Ailes 22 June 1939 linked above, Holste says that the MH.20 was his third built aircraft, but the first two did not fly. I think that these first two aircraft were probably the two-seat trainer and the wooden racer.
The MH.20 was first planned with a Béarn 12 A engine with 12 vertically opposed cylinders. This explains the different engine cowling visible on the windtest model and on the early drawing in Les Ailes. This Béarn engine was a complete failure, and seized at its first flight on the Lignel 20-S. It was replaced by the Régnier 12 Hoo (or 12 H-00 ?) on the actual MH.20. Both engines were developed with 6.5-litre capacity for the late Coupe Deutsch events, which never took place.
Around 1940, Holste had a project for a military trainer evolved from the MH.20, which is discussed in this other thread:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18622.0.html
Adrien
The main sources about Max Holste are the book Les avions Max Holste by Delarue and the article by Claveau in Trait d'Union no.215, with minor additions in no.218.
According to Delarue, the first aircraft built by Max Holste was a two-seat low-wing monoplane built in 1934 with 95hp engine, which never flew. This is probably the aircraft described by Claveau as a "1933 two-seat trainer".
After that, Claveau mentions a wooden single-seat monoplane racer, date unknown, with Régnier 95hp engine. He quotes an earlier article (1978) by Bardou saying that this wooden racer was called MH.10. (Though the aircraft is described as a racer in those sources, I don't think that it seriously could compete in any contemporary French race with a 95hp engine.)
In Les Ailes 22 June 1939 linked above, Holste says that the MH.20 was his third built aircraft, but the first two did not fly. I think that these first two aircraft were probably the two-seat trainer and the wooden racer.
The MH.20 was first planned with a Béarn 12 A engine with 12 vertically opposed cylinders. This explains the different engine cowling visible on the windtest model and on the early drawing in Les Ailes. This Béarn engine was a complete failure, and seized at its first flight on the Lignel 20-S. It was replaced by the Régnier 12 Hoo (or 12 H-00 ?) on the actual MH.20. Both engines were developed with 6.5-litre capacity for the late Coupe Deutsch events, which never took place.
Around 1940, Holste had a project for a military trainer evolved from the MH.20, which is discussed in this other thread:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18622.0.html
Adrien
Hi,
These are interesting speculative designs.
I think that some inspiration may be drawn from similar contemporary aircraft like the Caudron 690, Maillet 201 or Lignel 10 & 16, all of which were closely related to civilian racers or sports aircraft. Based on those models, I think that the two open cockpits are very unlikely.
I also think that the engine cowling should be modified. The MH.20 racer had a Régnier 12 Hoo inverted V-12, which was a very special racing engine. A military trainer would most likely have a Renault 6Q, or possibly a Régnier or Béarn inverted six-cylinder.
Finally you will notice that the Armée de l'Air considered both single-seat and two-seat aircraft for advanced training, so there is a possibility that the MH.20 trainer variant was actually a single-seater. The radical CAPRA R.30 shows how far one could go as a single-seat trainer concept:
http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-les-premiers-avion-capra-52238091.html
Adrien
These are interesting speculative designs.
I think that some inspiration may be drawn from similar contemporary aircraft like the Caudron 690, Maillet 201 or Lignel 10 & 16, all of which were closely related to civilian racers or sports aircraft. Based on those models, I think that the two open cockpits are very unlikely.
I also think that the engine cowling should be modified. The MH.20 racer had a Régnier 12 Hoo inverted V-12, which was a very special racing engine. A military trainer would most likely have a Renault 6Q, or possibly a Régnier or Béarn inverted six-cylinder.
Finally you will notice that the Armée de l'Air considered both single-seat and two-seat aircraft for advanced training, so there is a possibility that the MH.20 trainer variant was actually a single-seater. The radical CAPRA R.30 shows how far one could go as a single-seat trainer concept:
http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-les-premiers-avion-capra-52238091.html
Adrien
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Yes, about the open cockpits you're probably right, would have been a kind of "advanced
trainer", I think, so maybe in a way as the Texan.
Is in Trait d'Union mentioned, if it was a two seat aircraft ? You're right, there were single seat
trainer, too, but as far as I know those were "fighter trainer", often intended as light fighters, too.
trainer", I think, so maybe in a way as the Texan.
Is in Trait d'Union mentioned, if it was a two seat aircraft ? You're right, there were single seat
trainer, too, but as far as I know those were "fighter trainer", often intended as light fighters, too.
The trainer MH.20 is mainly described in the book Les avions Max Holste by Delarue. The author only says that it was an "avion d'entraînement pour la chasse", for "economical training of fighter pilots", not saying if it was a single or two-seater. But from the wording I think that a single-seater is more likely, to accumulate cheap flying hours for fighter pilots.
As far as I understand (notably from an article by Jean Liron about SFCA), there was a 1935 specification for a single-seat advanced trainer, for which the Caudron C.690 and Lignel 10 were produced. A lightened version of the Mureaux 190 was also planned. Only the latter was really dual purpose, the Caudron and Lignel were pure trainers.
Later there was also a 1938 specification for two-seat advanced trainers (P2 = Perfectionnement, 2-seat), with the Caudron 870, MS.435, Dewoitine 580 and Lignel 16.
As far as I understand (notably from an article by Jean Liron about SFCA), there was a 1935 specification for a single-seat advanced trainer, for which the Caudron C.690 and Lignel 10 were produced. A lightened version of the Mureaux 190 was also planned. Only the latter was really dual purpose, the Caudron and Lignel were pure trainers.
Later there was also a 1938 specification for two-seat advanced trainers (P2 = Perfectionnement, 2-seat), with the Caudron 870, MS.435, Dewoitine 580 and Lignel 16.
Hi Hesham,
I think you are making too much of the choice of words. The project is described in TU215 as "dérivé d'entraînement du MH.20". To me as a native French speaker, this wording does not imply anything as to the number of seats. (The French word "dérivé" means that the design was based on another, it does not imply anything as to the importance of the modification. I think it's the same for the English "derivative" by the way.)
About the MH.20 trainer, it seems that the only source for its mention in TU 215 (who says "no more information") is the book by Delarue. The description in Delarue is not specific on the number of seats, so at the end we don't know. But I wanted to insist that French advanced trainers in the late 1930s were not necessarily two-seaters.
Adrien
I think you are making too much of the choice of words. The project is described in TU215 as "dérivé d'entraînement du MH.20". To me as a native French speaker, this wording does not imply anything as to the number of seats. (The French word "dérivé" means that the design was based on another, it does not imply anything as to the importance of the modification. I think it's the same for the English "derivative" by the way.)
About the MH.20 trainer, it seems that the only source for its mention in TU 215 (who says "no more information") is the book by Delarue. The description in Delarue is not specific on the number of seats, so at the end we don't know. But I wanted to insist that French advanced trainers in the late 1930s were not necessarily two-seaters.
Adrien
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I agree with Adrien, "avion d'entraînement pour la chasse" to me is a perfect translation for the term "fighter trainer",
which generally was used for single seat aircraft. Aircraft actually built for this task were the Fw 56, or the Hs 121, but often
outdated fighter types were used for that role, for example the He 51 and Ar 68.
Anybody who remembers a two seater in this class ?
which generally was used for single seat aircraft. Aircraft actually built for this task were the Fw 56, or the Hs 121, but often
outdated fighter types were used for that role, for example the He 51 and Ar 68.
Anybody who remembers a two seater in this class ?
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Jemiba said:
I suppose it is, but technically, the term "pursuit" is more correct to translate "chasse", at least in the pre-war era.
Of course the term "avion de chasse" is still the one in use nowadays for Rafales and Mirages, and "fighter" is more appropriate in this case because these aircraft are not strictly used in the pursuit role.
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"pursuit plane" = "avion de chasse" ="Jagdflugzeug" !
Yes, you're right ! There's really a danger in such translations, and the results sometimes can be found
even in books. The English term "fighter aircraft", principally means the same, but translated literally
into the German language, it would be "Kampfflugzeug", generally meaning a bomber !
Yes, you're right ! There's really a danger in such translations, and the results sometimes can be found
even in books. The English term "fighter aircraft", principally means the same, but translated literally
into the German language, it would be "Kampfflugzeug", generally meaning a bomber !
This is drifting off topic, but in the interwar period I suspect that the word "pursuit" was used in the US only (see the P- designations). The word "fighter" was already of common use in Britain (this is confirmed by issues of Flight magazine). It displaced the older word "scout", used during WW1 for the lighter models (see the Bristol Scout & Bristol Fighter).
None of those English words is a literal equivalent to "chasse" / "Jagd" (hunting) but they clearly designated the same concept.
None of those English words is a literal equivalent to "chasse" / "Jagd" (hunting) but they clearly designated the same concept.
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
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From TU 218.
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This text may perhaps be of interest.
ingeniumcanada.org
A racing airplane made in Paris by unemployed workers | The Channel
Hello comrade.
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