Martin Model 282 Comanche

[Mark Nankivil]

Hi All -

My friend Mike Burke loaned me some of his negatives to scan and these thankfully included some images he had shown me of a model he once owned as a kid of the proposed Martin Model 282 Comanche Night Intruder.

A chance that someone might have additional information on this design?

Enjoy! Mark

 

[Orionblamblam]

Huh. I do believe that I have an inboard profile of the fuselage, scanned at the Martin Museum archive. It's a grayscale painting, not a simple line drawing. However, I don't have access to that stuff at the moment... perhaps someone else has it and knows of what I speak.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

282 was an "Advanced night intruder" for the US Air Force according to the Martin project list. I have no information on it. Obviously the B-57 was the Night Intruder, so this is an B-57 replacement or alternative, presumably.

 

[Stargazer]

WOW! Mark, you have made my day!!! This is a nice surprise. Imagine if the guy had not taken these pics as a kid, perhaps none of this project might remain now... Makes me full of hope all of a sudden for all the other programs seemingly lost in history's vaults.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Its got clear XB-51 influence in the tail. B-57 was Model 272 of course.

 

[Skybolt]

perhaps someone else has it and knows of what I speak.

Who, me ?
The interest in Night Intruders didn't end here. There was the Model 289, a rather larger plane of which I have model photos only.

 

[Skybolt]

Model 289-7 Night Intruder, courtesy of Stan Piet from the Glenn Martin Aviation Museum in Baltimore, Md.
By the way, I'm sure Stan would greatly appreciate hi-res scans of that model photos you have, Mark.

 

[Stargazer]

Design lineage for these birds also extended to the Model 316 Tactical Bomber project:

 

[Skybolt]

And not ended there. The high free flying tail was reused time and again.

 

[Stargazer]

Yeah! The P6M Seamaster for instance. This Model 282 was truly a great looking bird!

 

[Stargazer]

As we may never see period documents for the Comanche, here is a little recreation I made from one of the photos. Hope you guys enjoy it!

 

[AeroFranz]

Skybolt's picture of the model 282 shows a strikingly highly-swept and untapered vertical fin, reminiscent of the TA-183. Was Multhopp involved in that study?

 

[Skybolt]

Pertinent observation. The answer is: who knows ?
BTW, this thread is made entirely by Senior Members... would please the normal guys post in ? We don't eat anybody.

 

[robunos]

You asked for it......

Okay, stating the obvious here, but this seems to be an evolution of the 'Super Canberra'.
This is the model 282, the 'Super Canberra' is the model 272 B, from here :-

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/8018

Anyway, back to the model 282. As can be seen from below, the nose section is very similar indeed to the
'Super Canberra', which suggests a development link, however the single engine is surprising.
Any idea as to what it could be? J57?, J75?
The stock B-57 had around 14,500 lbst, the 'Super Canberra' would have had 21,700 lbst,
(from 'B-57 Canberra at War', page 36).

It also shares a lot of XB-68 DNA, in it's general proportions. A thought, could it have been designed as a
'half sized' XB-68, ie half the thrust, half the range, half the warload, etc?

Just my two bob's worth, and as the commentator at Old Warden says, when the Spitfire flies past,

I'll shut up, now........ ;D

cheers,
Robin.

 

[smurf]

Phew, all in one day! Thanks for this, especially the pics.

 

[Skybolt]

Hey, normal guys are REAL guys.. ;D

 

[elider]

Being a below normal guy I can tell you that I enjoy this forum so much I my wife thinks it is an obsession.
I've shot my wad on things to contribute, and at my age don't forsee an ability to research anything new. So perhaps
the normal members feel ill at ease, as I do, even visiting the forum let alone making comments. I'd feel the
same way if I was at a conference on MHD propulsion--would'nt be raising my hand there. Thanks to all who
do contribute.
One observation: If I could do anything like the senior members have done in making my days so much brighter,
I'd have a profound sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. I hope all of you are aware of the fact that you
provide enormous joy to many people.

 

[Artie Bob]

Skybolt's picture of the model 282 shows a strikingly highly-swept and untapered vertical fin, reminiscent of the Ta 183. Was Multhopp involved in that study? IIRC the version of the Ta-183 most often seen was not the final configuration which was a more conventional appearing design. So it would seem unlikely to me that a feature abandoned on the Ta 183 would indicate lineage to a later design.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

 

[robunos]

Right, done some more (very) amateur(ish) research...

Comparing the side views of the 282 and the 'super canberra', from here :-

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,32.msg63882.html#msg63882

they're about the same size, ( the 282 fuselage is slightly shorter).
Now from 'B-57 Canberra at War', the 'super canberra' was to have 21,700 lbst installed thrust, which is in the same ballpark as the J75 power
rating, 27,500 lbst maximum, 18,100 lbst military rating, from the XB-68 SAC, in OBB's APR v0n0.
Now, of course, the XB-68 was to have two J75s.
Again, looking at the side views, the 282s weapons bay seems smaller than the 'super canberra's, although I think that the 282 may have
carried some of it's ordnance under the wings, and from Mark Nankivill's pictures, the inlets appear to be sharp edged, which suggests
supersonic performance.
Regarding the tail fin design, Dr Multhopp of course worked for Martin, so I suppose it can't be ruled out.
(Artie Bob, I was under the impression that the 'classic' Ta 183 _was_ the final configuration.)

So, therefore, IMHO, the model 282 was a development of the model 272 B 'super canberra', was to be powered by a single J75 engine,
and was in effect a 'half size' model 316 XB-68.

I invite your criticism.........

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Sundog]

Very cool and thanks for posting the pics!

Skybolt, are the engines of the Model 289-7 in the wing roots? That's what I'm assuming, since I can't see the exhaust nozzles in the fuselage.

 

[Pioneer]

Very cool and thanks for posting the pics!

I second this!
Great find!
Great effort!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

M-252B Super Canberra

(crosspost from this topic)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Being a below normal guy I can tell you that I enjoy this forum so much I my wife thinks it is an obsession.
I've shot my wad on things to contribute, and at my age don't forsee an ability to research anything new. So perhaps
the normal members feel ill at ease, as I do, even visiting the forum let alone making comments. I'd feel the
same way if I was at a conference on MHD propulsion--would'nt be raising my hand there. Thanks to all who
do contribute.
One observation: If I could do anything like the senior members have done in making my days so much brighter,
I'd have a profound sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. I hope all of you are aware of the fact that you
provide enormous joy to many people.

Elider has been generous in supporting the forum financially, helping the forum stay online. Without donors, we'd be in trouble. So thanks back to you

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Buried front engine face, near flat bottom and near matching leading and trailing edge sweep on all surfaces... Could the Martin (co)Manche be a pre Ufimstev inadvertent forward scattering shaped and therefore low radar cross section aircraft? If not she’s still a looker...

The engine looks like a J75 so it would have plenty of grunt for an attack plane.

 

[Skybolt]

are the engines of the Model 289-7 in the wing roots? That's what I'm assuming, since I can't see the exhaust nozzles in the fuselage.

.
Absolutely. The exhausts are under the trailing edge of the wing, I suppose to shorten the exhaust pipe and masking the exhaust itself somewhat.
Picture courtesy of Stan Piet from the GMAM.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

Well, there's a small chance this model still exists and we may be able to reacquire it. Mike sold it back when he got out of college and the gentleman who bought it is/was in the St. Louis area and recently passed away. A group of us have made an offer for his collection and if successful, I am hoping we find the model still there. I got an e-mail from Stan Piet and they have little in the way of Martin models so it would make sense to see it go there for posterity. Here's hoping....

Thanks all for posting the additional info and related designs. Simply put, this site and all of you are the best!

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Firefly 2]

Speaking as an enthusiast: a simply stunning design. Too bad the timeline to date this design is speculative at best.

 

[Skybolt]

Not so speculative: 1952-53 at the latest.

 

[The Artist]

Hi all.

Mark has mentioned this forum a few times and I finally got around to checking it out. I thought I join in and give you some background on this model.

I grew up in Baltimore and back in the 70s I was a member of an Aviation Explorer post which was sponsored by the 175th TFG, Maryland Air National Guard. The 175th is based across the field from the Martin (now Lockheed Martin) buildings at Martin Field. I remember seeing a number of Martin models in the various rooms and offices I had been in while in Explorers. Most of the models I remember were of common Martin designs and I got the impression that because those models were not of (then) current aircraft they were getting to be viewed more as clutter - that is except for the Seamaster models on the water-base which everyone thought looked cool. A Sargent gave me the Comanche model along with a small SM-76 Mace and a Vanguard model. Those models were not in the best of condition then.

One time I tried to find a proper home for the model at the Smithsonian's NASM but they turned it down. The fuselage had been partially repainted for a show (The paint loss was heavier on the underside and I didn't really know what I had at that time.) so the curator who looked at the model said that the model was worthless at that point despite the fact that I had photographed the model before the work was done.

As you may be able to tell from the photos, that model was big. My estimate - based on memory - is that the aircraft was about twenty-four inches long and on the stand it stood about eighteen inches tall. As an artist, I think the stand made a bigger impression on me because that graphic on the base was all hand painted - even the details of the feather in the red triangle. I have a few poor quality color photos taken after the partial repaint and I'll see if I can scan them to post or get them to Mark to work on and post.

That's about all I'll say about it at this time - except to say that I support the effort to get the model into the Martin Museum.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Very interesting to hear the story, thanks for sharing.

While its good that collectors often preserve models, it can also hide them from public view. The best place for rare items would be a museum.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Hi Mike - aka "The Artist"! Welcome aboard!

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Stargazer]

Welcome, Mike! And thank you SO much for letting us know about the Comanche!

 

[The Artist]

Here are two low-res quality color pictures. Maybe Mark will be able to clean them up a little with the negatives - when I can find them.

Mike

 

[Stargazer]

Thank you so much for sharing, Artist! Do you realize that without you, no-one would have ever heard of the Comanche? These photos taken in your youth may be the only thing left of that project!

 

[Steve Pace]

I've heard from Stan Piet that NARA will soon reopen Sara Clark's files dealing largely with lost Martin files.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Quick attempt at colour restoration. If I can get higher res scans, happy to try for better

 

[CAIR67]

I can't believe a curator at NASM would call this model worthless because it had been repainted! ??? If you guys are successful in getting it I would like to offer my model restoration services for it. I live in the area and my speciality is Glenn L Martin models. The Martin Museum has a very nice collection of Martin models and this one would be a great addition.

 

[allysonca]

I'm 2nd in line for this....... fingers crossed....

 

[Pioneer]

Please excuse my ignorance, but looking at all these wonderful pictures of the desktop model and the inboard profile, I can't derive if this design had an internal weapons bay or was it intended to carrying it's weapons externally?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[sienar]

Source: AWST 18 October 1954