Martin-Baker 12 gun fighter

[kampfflieger]

Does anybady has plans of this one?

Where the picture from?

Thank you!

 

[Nik]

Any indication what the tail looked like ??

 

[Avimimus]

Are those rudders on the engine nacelles?!

 

[kampfflieger]

Unfortunately this picture that's all that I know about this plane

 

[robunos]

Any indication what the tail looked like ??

That is the tail!!..........

Compare with the drawing of the M.B.2 posted below, from 'Air Enthusiast', December 1972, page 298.
Originally the aircraft had no separate fin and rudder,
"The depth of the fuselage was almost constant from nose to tail...the elimination of fixed vertical tail
surfaces, the rudder taking the form of a hinged extension to the fuselage. This represented an attempt
to reduce both drag and weight by the careful balancing of the fuselage keel area...
flown for the first time... by Capt Baker, who immediately ascertained...serious directional instability, and
a rudimentary fixed tailfin was therefore applied...more orthodox vertical...surfaces were fitted in early 1939,
resulting in a marked improvement..."

So, whatever the design above is, I would guess that it was drawn before the M.B.2 had flown, and the
shortcomings of the tail design were known.


cheers,
Robin.

 

[brewerjerry]

Hi
thanks for the original drawing, looks very interesting.
possibly it was to the same spec ? as the 12 gun whirlwind nose that westland produced.
cheers
Jerry

 

[kampfflieger]

Hi
thanks for the original drawing, looks very interesting.
possibly it was to the same spec ? as the 12 gun whirlwind nose that westland produced.
cheers
Jerry

Jerry,

Wikipedia says:

Around this time Martin was considering various other ideas, both for complete aircraft and for certain components. The aircraft designs included a twin-engined 12-gun fighter and a twin-engined multi-seat transport, both featuring the finless layout of the early MB2 airframe. In the fighter design, the trailing edge of the engine nacelles provided additional vertical control surfaces, and also incorporated the patented ducting system evolved by Martin to reduce drag caused by the engine exhaust.

Regards

 

[Justo Miranda]

Additional info , unknown source

 

[kampfflieger]

Thanks a lot, Justo!

May be you know dimensios of aircraft?

 

[Justo Miranda]

-Wingspan 50 ft
-Lenght 36 ft
-Weight 8.500 lb

 

[kampfflieger]

Thank you again!

 

[brewerjerry]

Hi All,
Great info, any ideas which engines were proposed to be used.
cheers
Jerry

 

[Pepe Rezende]

Hi All,
Great info, any ideas which engines were proposed to be used.
cheers
Jerry

They were suposed to use Merlins. The MB2 was designed to use Merlins but was reworked to use Napier Dagger III.

Cheers

Pepe

 

[kampfflieger]

Thanks a lot for the help!

1/100 card model is finished. Model is mine, build by Pericles Gomide filho.

 

[AeroFranz]

Are those tip mounted ailerons? ???

 

[kampfflieger]

I think yes.

 

[XN923]

I can't see how the engines would have been cooled on the 12-gun fighter. Would it have had some sort of evaporative cooling?

 

[Jemiba]

Good question. Perhaps integrated into the leading edges, as in
the DH Mosquito ?

 

[Arjen]

Evaporative cooling is very unlikely, Rolls-Royce gave up on evaporative cooling after experimenting with it on the Goshawk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Goshawk

 

[XN923]

Evaporative cooling is very unlikely, Rolls-Royce gave up on evaporative cooling after experimenting with it on the Goshawk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Goshawk

Thanks - with Martin's penchant for impractical innovations I wasn't sure! Leading edge radiators seem to be another possibility as Jemiba suggests, but there doesn't seem to be anything on the drawing to give away where the radiators might be sited.

Does anyone know if any drawings exist of the Merlin installation designed for the MB.2?

 

[ursrius]

This is described and illustrated in "Sir James Martin - The Authorised Biography" by Sarah Sharman, published by PSL in 1996 and is stated as being Martin Bakers private venture submission to Specification F.35/35. 35This may or may not be correct, as other submissions to F.35/35 were all single engined and I have seen no published record of MB submission to this Spec. Perhaps this is a typo as the MB.2 was submitted to F.34/35. The book gives powerplants to be 2x RR Merlins, length 36ft and span 50ft.

 

[Schneiderman]

Spec 35/35 for a High Speed Aeroplane was issued in December 1935 and part of the text read 'Boldness and originality are wanted, and not merely a reproduction of existing practice with increased engine power'. It does not state categorically that a single engine design was requested although all mention of the powerplant says engine and not engines.
Although submissions were intended for a pure research aircraft it does state that the design '..should be capable of development into a multi-gun single-seat fighter'. However the specification had no F prefix.
Given that the MB design clearly predates the first flight of the MB2 (Aug 1938) and is clearly innovative I would think it quite probable that it was designed to 35/35, although whether it was actually submitted appears to be unknown. The list of designs submitted is usually given as GAL, Airspeed, Bristol and Hawker but there were definitely others designed to the spec., for example one by Gloster

 

[Schneiderman]

Some additional information.
The 12-gun fighter was designed in parallel with work on the MB2 and several elements of the design were the subject of patents in 1935 and 1936.
Firstly, the ailerons, which were aligned with the wing spar and hence would not induce torsional twisting of the wing (GB472845).
Secondly the exhaust system was routed entirely within a duct inside the nacelle (GB471156). There was to be an opening at the front to provide cooling air into the duct. A similar system was planned for the MB2, in one scheme, with the exhaust running the entire length of the fuselage to exhaust at the tail.
The third thing is that there are rudders at the rear of each engine nacelle in addition to that at the tail, how that was expected to function is not clear (GB471156 again).
There are no clues as to how the engines were to be cooled but a later patent covering schemes for gun heating suggests that the aircraft, if built, may have been fitted with chin radiators (GB495047).

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
http://modelplanes.de/royal-air-force/jaeger-royal-air-force/martin-baker-12-gun-fighter-unicraft-resi/
"TYPE: Long-range escort fighter. Project
ACCOMMODATION: Pilot only
POWER PLANT: Two Rolls-Royce Merlin III engines, rated at 1,030 hp each
PERFORMANCE: No data available
COMMENT: Prior to WWII, the major world powers knew they needed long-range fighters to escort their bombers deep into enemy territory. To this end, the British aircraft company Martin Baker submitted an innovative design for a tailless, twin-engine fighter armed with 12 heavy machine guns. Its rudder gone to help reduce drag, the plane would use the trailing ends of its engine nacelles for lateral control supplemented with ducted engine exhaust gases as well as propeller induced air stream. Although seriously evaluated by the RAF, the Martin Baker 12 Gun Fighter never made it past the design stage."

 

[Schneiderman]

That description is a classic bit of history rewritten in the light of later knowledge. There is nothing to suggest that the project was intended as an escort fighter, a concept that had yet to receive serious consideration in late 1935 when the first elements of the design were drawn up. Neither is there any reason to assume a Merlin III, the sketched engine shape appears to be Merlin but which type is guesswork. The suggestion that the Air Ministry 'seriously evaluated' the idea is also highly questionable.....as in 'no they didn't'.

 

[blackkite]

I see. Thanks a lot.