Mariscraft aircraft from Mexico

[Hawker Nut]

Hello! This is my first post. No more staring at the fence, so here it goes: I have been trying to find reliable information on an elusive Mexican aircraft manufacturer active at the end of the 1930s, by the name of Mariscraft. I found a single Mariscraft MA-185 listed here: http://www.worldairforces.com/Countries/mexico/mex.html
In a case similar to the one of the AEKKEA-RAAB designs, discussed in a previous thread, I wasn't able to locate a single photo of this mysterious machine. Anyway, and since it seems to have been built, please feel free to move the post to a more appropriate thread.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,

HN

 

[Apophenia]

Welcome aboard HN!

Not what you're looking for but a Mariscraft design (presumably also by Salvador Mariscal Flores).

 

[Hawker Nut]

Hi Apophenia,

Thank you very much! I had located this very same 3v in a Mexican discussion forum, but unfortunately the person who posted it didn't provide any sources. It seems to have been scanned from some book or magazine.
The aircraft (a project, I suppose) of the drawing has something of an advanced trainer or a even a fighter about it, and reminds me of some US designs from the same era. It is however, identified as the MA-260, but for some reason the person who posted the three view also calls it "Minero Mexicano", a name I thought had only been applied to the MA-185. Will keep digging...

 

[Maveric]

Hi Hawker Nut,

thanks for this very interesting topic.
Do you have the link for this forum?

Thanks Maveric

 

[Hawker Nut]

Hi Maveric,

Yes, I do. It is a sub-forum within a larger RC forum. To see the drawing, just scroll down:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1075164&page=19
I suspect the picture might have come from "Alas Mexicanas: Historia de las Construcciones Aeronauticas Nacionales", by Hector Dávila Cornejo (Mexico DF: SCT, 1998), but I am not sure as I do not own the book.
Thanks for your interest.

HN

 

[Maveric]

Thanks for this link. Great find, Hawker Nut!

I have an other one. Built in WWI, but I have no other information. Can you id this bird?

Thanks Maveric

 

[Tophe]

Thanks for presenting this unknown twin-boomer. Do you know if it is bought from a foreign country or designed locally?

 

[Stargazer]

It is however, identified as the MA-260, but for some reason the person who posted the three view also calls it "Minero Mexicano", a name I thought had only been applied to the MA-185. Will keep digging...

I didn't know this design or manufacturer before reading this topic, but just a thought: since it is safe to assume that Mariscraft did not design 260 different types in its (presumably) short history, may I suggest that the "185" and "260" could simply refer to two different variants of the same "MA" design, corresponding to the engine's power? Thus MA-185 would use a 180 hp engine while "MA-260" would use a 260 hp engine (although I must admit this is not much for a 1930s fighter type!). MA-185 would then probably be the prototype and MA-260 only a planned military variant that was never built...

 

[Maveric]

Do you know a pic of the MA-185? And some data for both types?

 

[Maveric]

Thanks for presenting this unknown twin-boomer. Do you know if it is bought from a foreign country or designed locally?

Tophe,

JAWA 1919: Two views of a Mexican-built Twin-fuselage Biplane.

Maveric

 

[Hawker Nut]

I can only second Tophe's comment! I never saw this twin-boomer before, but I assume it was built in Mexico, but perhaps not by TNCA, as most of their achievements have been more or less well documented.

Stargazer2006: well, that makes sense; and yes, 260 hp is definitely well bellow average for a fighter by late 1930s standards. The aircraft depicted in the three-view drawing, however, seems to be a two-seater (with 2/3 enclosed canopy and open over the instructor seat) and hence a trainer or even a fighter trainer. The retractable landing gear also seems to indicate a possible advanced training role, but this is only mere speculation until more solid evidence is found.

 

[Tophe]

JAWA 1919: Two views of a Mexican-built Twin-fuselage Biplane.

Thanks for this source and date, I plan to check in the months to come if this biplane pusher twin-boomer looks like a 'foreign' one.

 

[Apophenia]

The Spartan 8W Zeus in Mexican service had roughly the same configuration but wasn't considered a fighter. Since the Zeus had a 600 hp P&W, I think it's reasonable to assume that Salvador Mariscal Flores had something more powerful in mind for the Ma-260.

If the Ma-260 was indeed to be a fighter, perhaps inspiration came from the 2-seat Seversky 'convoy fighter' concept?

 

[Stargazer]

The Spartan 8W Zeus in Mexican service had roughly the same configuration but wasn't considered a fighter. Since the Zeus had a 600 hp P&W, I think it's reasonable to assume that Salvador Mariscal Flores had something more powerful in mind for the Ma-260.

If the Ma-260 was indeed to be a fighter, perhaps inspiration came from the 2-seat Seversky 'convoy fighter' concept?

But I seem to recall the Zeus was a bigger aircraft, with a opening rear of the cockpit for a gunner...

 

[archipeppe]

JAWA 1919: Two views of a Mexican-built Twin-fuselage Biplane.

It seems to be a sort of scaled-down Caproni Ca. 3

 

[Hawker Nut]

The Spartan 8W Zeus in Mexican service had roughly the same configuration but wasn't considered a fighter. Since the Zeus had a 600 hp P&W, I think it's reasonable to assume that Salvador Mariscal Flores had something more powerful in mind for the Ma-260.

If the Ma-260 was indeed to be a fighter, perhaps inspiration came from the 2-seat Seversky 'convoy fighter' concept?

As for the MA-260, with a lenght of just 6,88 m and a span of 8,90 m (as per the three view), it was a rather compact machine, more or less in the I-16 category, and a bit smaller than the 2-seat Seversky 'convoy fighters' (whose sale to Japan turned Seversky into a pariah among US aircraft manufacturers), which were slightly longer than the P-35 single-seater (the Zeus was even bigger). But I agree with Apophenia as to the probable source of inspiration followed by Salvador Mariscal Flores for his two-seater, down to the semi-elliptical wing planform so typical of Seversky designs.

It seems to be a sort of scaled-down Caproni Ca. 3

Indeed. I wonder if it had benefitted from some Italian input, given the purchase by the Mexican government of Italian aircraft immediately after WW I, such as the Ansaldo A.1 'Balilla' or the Ansaldo A.300.

 

[Stargazer]

As you can see in the following pictures, the Spartan Model 8 "Zeus" (also named the "FBW-1") was a bigger aircraft. The MA-260 looks more of the Seversky P-35 or Polikarpov I-16 size.

 

[Apophenia]

I am aware that the Ma-260 was to be a smaller aircraft than the Spartan Zeus. My point was that the Mexicans had an aircraft of similar configuration powered by a 600 hp engine. As such, 180 or 260 hp engines for 1939-era fighters seemed even more unlikely.

 

[Hawker Nut]

Apparently, the Mexicans evaluated a single FBW-1 Zeus in 1938, but no orders were placed. Perhaps the MA-260 project was designed to fulfill a similar role.

 

[lucamax]

Hi friends! I made a very simple color profile of the Ma-260. I hope you'll like it ;-)

 

[Apophenia]

Handsome scheme. Nicely done lucamax!

In a rather weighty thesis on aircraft structures for the Instituto Politécnico Nacional (IPN), Ing. Jose Manuel Paz Fernandez says "... Salvador Mariscal Flores con el malogrado Mariscraft ..." but with no further explanation.

'Ill-fated' seems an odd choice of words if the Ma-185 simply failed to reach production. From the context, perhaps that sole Ma-185 suffered a major structural failure in service?

 

[Hawker Nut]

Hi Apophenia,
I am aware of Ing. José Manuel Paz thesis, and he gives an additional hint as to the identity of the Mariscraft aircraft he mentions, by saying "... el malogrado Mariscraft, avión para vuelos intercontinentales...", i.e. an aircraft meant for international, long distance flights. I don't think this refers to the MA-185. The only Mexican aircraft, specially designed for such purpose I can think of is the MTW-1 'Barberán y Collar' (so christened in honor to the two Spanish fliers that disappeared in Mexico after their long flight with CASA-Breguet 19 'Cuatro Vientos'), a single engined, shoulder wing, quite ambitious machine built by TNCA in 1933 for a non-stop transatlantic flight linking Mexico City and Madrid, which was indeed ill-fated after the detection of structural problems with the retractable landing gear (a first in Mexican indigenous aircraft), during its maiden flight...
I have no indications whatsoever about Salvador Mariscal Flores' involvement in the MTW-1 design. The best reference on the MTW-1 is an article by Hector Dávila, published in issue # 86 of the magazine 'America Vuela': "TNCA MTW-1, Barberán y Collar: el triunfo que fracasó".

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks HN. With so few Mariscraft references out there, I reckoned on you having seen that thesis ;D When reading that sentence, I wasn't sure if the author was implying direct Mariscraft involvement with intercontinental flights (or for that matter with Ing. Alberto Barreda and airships).

 

[Hawker Nut]

The author of the thesis implied a direct involvement of Salvador Mariscal Flores in the development of an aircraft intended for long-distance flights, quite in vogue in the early Thirties. Mabye - and that's a big "if" - Mariscal Flores participated in the MTW-1 development, as a member of the TNCA team that designed it... After all, the portly monoplane was the only Mexican aircraft actually built with such purpose in mind, and since it also failed to perform adequately maybe it is the machine mentioned by Ing. José Manuel Paz. ???

Unfortunately, details on Mexican aviation developments are sketchy, to say the least, in stark contrast to what have been done in the last few years to document the history of Argentinean aviation (just an example), which seems a lot more well documented and researched, even though the early efforts of the local industry aren't so well covered as the local careers of imported types that served in the military air arm or the naval aviation.

 

[theponja]

Very interesting thread. Thanks for call my attention to this history in the LatinAmerican aviation.
Does anyone has a good 3d view drawing for the MTW-1 ?

Thanks in advance
Luis

 

[Hawker Nut]

Hi Luis,
I am not sure whether such drawing exists, but I recall having seen one (rather basic) three view of the MTW-1 in a Mexican forum.
HN

Edit: Just found it - http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1075164&page=6

 

[theponja]

Thanks for the link HN. Could be a great plane to model.

 

[Hawker Nut]

You are welcome! Yes, in fact that could be an interesting idea, maybe even for a resin kit (not a short-run injected one, but I have stranger aircraft being kitted before, so...). I suppose much more detailed drawings must exist somewhere in Mexico, perhaps in published form. I would like to hear the opinion of fellow forum members from Mexico on this.

 

[Azcarate1961]

Saludos, mi nombre es Azcarate y quiero presentar la fotografía del Mariscraft o Minero Mexicano.
Saludos y espero por comentarios.

 

[Azcarate1961]

Greetings my name is Azcarate and I want to present the photograph of the Mexican Mariscraft &Mexican Miner
Greetings I wait for comments.

 

[dan_inbox]

Thank you. Photos of the Mariscraft Ma-185 are rather rare.

 

[martinedo]

Hi Apophenia,
I am aware of Ing. José Manuel Paz thesis, and he gives an additional hint as to the identity of the Mariscraft aircraft he mentions, by saying "... el malogrado Mariscraft, avión para vuelos intercontinentales...", i.e. an aircraft meant for international, long distance flights. I don't think this refers to the MA-185. The only Mexican aircraft, specially designed for such purpose I can think of is the MTW-1 'Barberán y Collar' (so christened in honor to the two Spanish fliers that disappeared in Mexico after their long flight with CASA-Breguet 19 'Cuatro Vientos'), a single engined, shoulder wing, quite ambitious machine built by TNCA in 1933 for a non-stop transatlantic flight linking Mexico City and Madrid, which was indeed ill-fated after the detection of structural problems with the retractable landing gear (a first in Mexican indigenous aircraft), during its maiden flight...
I have no indications whatsoever about Salvador Mariscal Flores' involvement in the MTW-1 design. The best reference on the MTW-1 is an article by Hector Dávila, published in issue # 86 of the magazine 'America Vuela': "TNCA MTW-1, Barberán y Collar: el triunfo que fracasó".

Thanks for the hint to Hector Dávilas article! - So often we can read MTW-1 - but it was MWT-1!

 

[Azcarate1961]

Greetings, attached another photograph of the Mariscraft in flight.
Azcarate
Mexico,D.F.

 

[Azcarate1961]

Esta imagen es de MTW-1 Barberan and Collar que sería piloteado por Francisco Sarabia en un vuelo México-España.
Saludos

 

[pegasus]

nice aircraft, I am Mexican, but you should write in English, I like the MTW-1 it is very hard to obtain pictures of aircraft of that era, Saludos