Marcel Besson Aircraft List

[hesham]

Hi,

Mr. Marcel Besson was born in 1889,he was a French designer and after made his first aircraft in 1911,he created
many aircraft,then turned to marine airplanes,he joined Levy in 1915,and after WWI he formed his one company,
which called Société de construction aéronautiques et Navales Marcel Besson,and I made some speculations about
his list,but all aircraft and Projects are right;

A.1 was a canard monoplane of 1911,powered by one 50 hp Clement-Bayard engine
Biplane was a biplane of 1911 as called "Besson and Pajo",powered by one 40 hp Labor engine
A.1/F was an amphibian version of canard monoplane,fitted with three floats and retractable u/c,March 1912
A.1/F.II was a similar canard monoplane appeared as a floatplane, with 2 all-steel floats mounted so they splayed
outwards as seen from the front, with a small float under the nose,December 1912
Flying Boat/1913 was a flying boat Project of 1913,with folding wings
Triplane 1913 was a triplane flying boat Project of 1913
H-1 was a two-bay triplane flying boat of 1914,intended for training,and powered by one 95 hp pusher engine
H-2 was a single-bay triplane flying boat of 1915,powered by one 150 hp Renault pusher engine

With Levy ;

LB.1 Alerte (MB-1) ? was a triplane coastal patrol flying boat of 1916,powered by one 200 hp Renault 12Fe Pusher engine
LB.2 (MB-2) ? was a three-seat triplane coastal patrol flying boat of 1917,powered by one 450 hp Renualt engine
LB.3 (MB-3) ? was a two-seat triplane coastal patrol flying boat of 1917,powered by one 500 hp Bugatti engine,never completed
LB.4 (MB-4) ? was a two-seat triplane coastal patrol flying boat of 1918,powered by one 300 hp Hispano-Suiza engine,never completed
LB.5 (MB-5) ? was a single seat fighter triplane Project of 1918,powered by one 300 Hispano-Suiza engine
LB.6 (MB-6) ? was a four-seat "High Seas" patrol triplane flying boat of 1918/19,powered by three 350 hp Lorraine engines

After establishing his firm ;

1919/I (MB-7) ? was a twin engined recce triplane flying boat of 1919,powered by two 450 hp Renault 12 Ja engines
1919/II (MB-8) ? was a two-seat trainer triplane flying boat,powered by one 60 hp Rhone 9Z engine
H-3 was a touring triplane flying boat of 1920,powered by 130 hp Cleget-Bin engine
H-4 (MB-9) ? was a two-seat trainer triplane flying boat of 1920,powered by one 130 hp Clerget engine
HB-5 or MB-10 was an open-sea bombing/recce quadruplane flying boat Project of 1919/20,powered by four 260 hp Salmson 9Z engines
H-5 or MB-11 was a five-seat transport quadruplane flying boat of 1922,was developed from HB-5,powered by four 400 hp
Lorraine engines
MB-12 was a modified version of H-3,but with an enlarged central wing in 1922
H-6 (MB-14) ? was a single seat postal triplane flying boat of 1921,powered by one 130 Clerget 9B engine
A.2 (MB-15) ? was a single seat high-wing monoplane Project of 1921,maybe a light aircraft
MB-16 ------?
MB-17 ------?
MB-18 ------?
MB-19 ------?
MB-20 ------?
MB-21 was a single-seat high-wing marine fighter Project of 1922/23,powered by one engine
MB-22 ------?
MB-23 ------?
MB-24 was a two-seat mid-wing recce seaplane Project of 1924,powered by one 400 hp Lorraine 12 Db engine
MB-25 ------?
MB-26 HB.2 was a two-seat seaplane recce sesquiplane of 1924/25,powered by one 400 hp Lorraine 12 Db engine
MB-26 C.2 was a two-seat fighter seaplane version of 1925/26,powered by one 400 hp Lorraine 12 Db engine
MB-27 was a triplane long distance transport flying boat of 1925,powered by three 400 hp Lorraine engines
MB-28 ------?
MB-29 (not aircraft) but a powered boat
MB-30 was a four-seat torpedo and recce bomber seaplane flying boat of 1928,powered by two engines
MB-31 ------?
MB-32 ------?
MB-33 ------?
MB-34 ------?
MB-35 was a low-wing two-seat spotter/recce floatplane of 1926/27,powered by one 120 hp Salmson 9Ae engine
MB-36 was a parasol-wing commercial transport monoplane of 1926/27,powered by three 450 hp Gnome-
Rhone 9Ad engines
MB-37 ------?
MB-38 ------?
MB-390 ? was a two-seat observation catapult-launched seaplane Project,need confirm
MB-40 ------?
MB-410 was a two-seat low-wing spotter/recce bomber floatplane of 1930,powered by one 175 hp Salmson 9Nd
engine
MB-411 was a developed version of MB.410
MB-42 was an Exploration seaplane or flying boat Project of 1932

After it was taken over by ANF-Mureaux in 1928,the series was
go on by indicator to it as Model;

Model-42 was the same as MB-42
Model-43 ------?
Model-44 ------?
Model-45 ------?
Model-46 ------?
Model-47 ------?
Model-48 ------?
Model-49 ? maybe it was a design by André Brunet,a small airplane
Project,with retractable landing gear,and powered two Salmson engines,
estimated speed was more than 400 km/h,appeared in 1935 under ANF-Mureaux designation
Model-50 was a two-seat attack seaplane Project,with two floats,
pulled by two 450 hp Salmson 12 Var engines,appeared in September 1936,also under ANF-Mureaux designation

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I add my speculations about his designation system (MB-?),and here is some sources.

Any additions or corrections are welcome

 

[hesham]

From Onera Archive,

I add MB-42 to the list.

 

[hesham]

From TU magazine,

I add the Besson designations from 42 to 50,after ANF-Mureaux
purchased it in 1928.

 

[Apophenia]

Great stuff hesham! I'm guessing that this ANF 50 would have been developed to the same Hydravion triplace de surveillance côtière specification as the Sud-Est S.E.400?

A minor point ...

H.3 : Powered by a 130 hp Clerget 9B rotary. "Cleget-Bin" (sic, Clerget-Blin) is just a short-form of the manufacturer's name - Société Clerget-Blin et Cie.

And a few issues with the MB.35 to MB.411 series with a little more info ...

MB.35 : First flew in 1926. Powered by an uncowled Salmson 9Ac (not 9Ae)

MB.410: First flew in 1932 (not 1930). Not a "recce bomber" - no armament at all, AFAIK. BTW, the MB.410-01 was actually a modification of the second prototype MB.35. Change to single main pontoon (with outrigger stabilizer floats) a cowled engine, and a refined fuselage.

MB.411: As you say, a developed version of MB.410. Some differences in construction but mainly in having more power from its 175 hp Salmson 9Nd radial. Mainly the MB.411 was a productionized variant built by ANF-Les Mureaux.

All three designs were developed specifically for operations from the submarine Surcouf with its onboard cylindrical hangar. Only the MB.411s were ever operationally from the Surcouf. serving with the Aéronavale's Escadrille HS7.
_____________________________________________________________________

MB.35 – 1926 2-seat observation/spotter floatplane, x 2
- MB.35: Foldable for stowage on submarine Surcouf
- MB.35: 1 x 120 hp Salmson 9Ac 9-cyl radial, span 9.85 m*
- MB.35: Open-cockpits, low-winged monoplane, twin floats
-- * Improbably, some sources, claim a span of only 7.00 m
- MB.35-01: Crashed (w/ fatal results) while on service trials
- MB.35-02: Conv. into single-float MB.41/MB.410 prototype
-- MB.35: aka MB.35 Passe Partout ('Pass Key')

MB.410 - 1932 2-seat observation/spotter floatplane, x 1
- MB.410 : Single-float refinement of MB.35-02 airframe
- MB.410 : 1 x 130 hp Salmson 9Nc radial, span 12.00 m
- MB.410-01: 1st flew (or was ordered?)* 24 Aug 1932
-- * Depending upon source
-- Lost on acceptance trials at Saint-Raphaël in 1933.

MB.411 - 1935 1/2-seat observation/spotter floatplane, x 2
- MB.411 : Prod'n vers. of the MB.410 by ANF-Les Mureaux
- MB.411 : 1 x 175 hp Salmson 9Nd radial, span 12.00 m
- MB.411-01: 1st flew June 1935, accept. trials Aug 1935
- MB.411-01: 1936 rebuilt as 2-seater by ANF-Les Mureaux
- MB.411-01: Evacuated with Surcouf, 18 June 1940
- MB.411-01: Damaged in storage by air raid on Plymouth*
-- * Luftwaffe raid 21 April 1941, prev. in RAF colours
- MB.411-02: Requested June 1936, ordered on 10 Feb 1937
- MB.411-02: June 1940, remained in France, no details[/I]

 

[Fcl]

>>> MB-42 was a seaplane or flying boat Project of 1932
it should be the answer from Besson/ANF Mureaux to the Exploration program started in 1931. no plan of this seaplane seems available anywhere.

 

[hesham]

Many great thanks Fcl,

and I will add it.

 

[Stargazer]

I've found two separate references which seem to indicate that the MB.410 and 411 were initially refered to only as the MB.41 (or Model 41) — a designation which does not appear in hesham's list (although Apophenia mentions it in passing):

A French submarine seaplane
BUILT by the Mureaux Company to the designs of M. Marcel Besson, the Besson 41 seaplane is intended for operation from submarines. The machine is a low-wing strut-braced monoplane with central float and wing floats. When fitted with a Salmson engine of 135 h.p., the top speed is 125 m.p.h.

Source: Flight, 1 March 1934​

L'hydravion Besson MB-41 à bord du Surcouf, avec son numérotage HS 73 de 1940.

Source: Les sous-marins français, 1918-1945, by Claude Huan (Marines édition, 1995)​

Also, the MB.35 was called the Passe-Partout, while the MB.411 was called the Pétrel, but those names haven't been mentioned previously in the topic:

Cependant, dès 1926, un constructeur d'avant-garde. M. Marcel Besson, exposait au salon de l'aviation un très intéressant hydravion dit Passe-Partout ou Besson MB 35, de dimensions réduites, spécialement étudié en vue d'un démontage et montage rapides, d'un garage sous un faible volume, et par conséquent particulièrement propre à être placé à bord d'un sous-marin.

Source: La Nature: Revue des sciences et de leurs applications aux arts et à l'industrie, Volume 59 - 1931​

Le Besson MB410, prototype de "la série" fait son premier vol en 1932. Cet unique prototype sera détruit l'année suivante au cours des essais. Le Marcel Besson MB-411 "Pétrel", version de série (!) est construit par ANF-Les Mureaux.

Source: Aviation Navale Française website​

Le dernier hydravion, conçu par Marcel Besson et construit par ANF-Les Mureaux, était un petit hydravion de reconnaissance biplace MB-411 ‘Pétrel’, construit en bois, destiné à être embarqué à bord du sous-marin ‘Surcouf’, sa petite taille devant permettre de l'entreposer dans une cale de 2 m de diamètre et 7 m de long.

Source: Cercle Aéronautique Louis Mouillard​

Le Marcel Besson MB-411 "Pétrel", construit par ANF-Les Mureaux, était un petit hydravion de reconnaissance biplace, construit en bois, destiné à être embarqué à bord du sous-marin Surcouf, sa petite taille devant permettre de l'entreposer dans une cale de 2 m de diamètre et 7 m de long.​

Guy Revel's website​

 

[hesham]

My dear Philippe (PhR),if you have anything to add to this list ?.

 

[hesham]

My dear Philippe (PhR),if you have anything to add to this list ?.

I think that,I have something to add,but I am not sure about it,in 1929 and for Spec. four-seat reconnaissance
bomber seaplane,Besson submitted a proposal ?,could be MB.38 and may it was based on MB.36 ?!.

 

[PhR]

My dear Philippe (PhR),if you have anything to add to this list ?.

I do not have a lot of things about Marcel Besson.
However, I attach a description of HB-42 Exploration seaplane project (not MB-42).

 

[hesham]

I do not have a lot of things about Marcel Besson.
However, I attach a description of HB-42 Exploration seaplane project (not MB-42).

Many thanks,but what is the different between MB.42 and HB.42 ?.

 

[Stargazer]

Two additions to the Besson list:

• A version of the A.1 in 1911 had a 70 hp Aviatic Rossel engine (can't say if it was a regular airframe or an amphibian).
• The prototype of the LB.2 had a 180 hp Hispano-Suiza engine.

Also, a mistake I'm fixing:

• The MB.27 had three, not one Lorraine 400 hp engine.

I attach a description of HB-42 Exploration seaplane project (not MB-42).

No, it's MB-42 alright. If you look closely, it's a faded "M". There was never such a thing as an "HB" prefix.

 

[hesham]

• An version of the A.1 in 1911 had a 70 hp Aviatic Rossel engine (can't say if it was a regular airframe or an amphibian).
• The prototype of the LB.2 had a 180 hp Hispano-Suiza engine.

- The A.1 of 1911 was a normal aircraft and not amphibian

- From where you got this Info,according to French Aircraft of the First World War,it's a 450 hp Renault engine ?.

- Many thanks,for MB.27 & MB.42.

 

[Stargazer]

From where you got this Info,according to French Aircraft of the First World War,it's a 450 hp Renault engine ?

It's in the attachment's name! ("Le prototype à moteur Hispano-Suiza 180 ch du Lévy-Besson, 1917", from L’Aérophile 1-15 avril 1919). Coming to think of it, this engine power seems more in the same class as the LB.1, not the LB.2, so it could be a variant of the LB.1 rather than the prototype of the LB.2.