Many more "Swedens" around?

[Lascaris]

Basically what it says on the title. Sweden has been the smallest country around, to consistently design and build its own fighter aircraft since 1945 when other countries often with much larger economies did not.

So assuming the political need was there which countries would have the technical/industrial capacity to pull something similar post 1945? Canada looks an obvious one. So would Italy and Japan. What about others like Australia or the Netherlands?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Basically what it says on the title. Sweden has been the smallest country around, to consistently design and build its own fighter aircraft since 1945 when other countries often with much larger economies did not.

So assuming the political need was there which countries would have the technical/industrial capacity to pull something similar post 1945? Canada looks an obvious one. So would Italy and Japan. What about others like Australia or the Netherlands?

Canada almost did, the CF-105 Arrow.

Italy could be a good one.

Sweden is interesting, since they have a GDP that's seriously only 1/7 that of Germany.

Japan and Germany needed to wait until the 1960s or so, to get their economy rebuilt and to rebuild their aviation industries in particular.

 

[red admiral]

You've got to bear in mind that Sweden has predominantly developed airframes and then bought equipment from overseas to put in them e.g. engines, quite a lot of avionics. It's then quite a lot less work and risk but people still see an aeroplane flying around with a Swedish flag painted on it.

I think many countries' similar attempts have nnot come off similarly because of being too ambitious. Aim low, then build from there.

 

[Scott Kenny]

You've got to bear in mind that Sweden has predominantly developed airframes and then bought equipment from overseas to put in them e.g. engines, quite a lot of avionics. It's then quite a lot less work and risk but people still see an aeroplane flying around with a Swedish flag painted on it.

A lot of unique avionics, mind you.

I think many countries' similar attempts have nnot come off similarly because of being too ambitious. Aim low, then build from there.

Yes, that's probably the issue here. Too many countries trying to build it ALL in-house, instead of just the airframe.

 

[_Del_]

Korea. Japan. Arguably Israel. Brazil, Italy, and South Africa at one time. Turkey seems committed to getting there.

 

[Apophenia]

Canada almost did, the CF-105 Arrow...

Canada actual did, the CF-100 Canuck But, consistently producing its own fighters? Nope.

At a stretch, the Canadair Sabre could be described as the opposite of what red admiral said about Sweden's approach. The airframe design was American but the Orenda engines and some other equipment were of Canadian origin.

 

[Archibald]

Basically what it says on the title. Sweden has been the smallest country around, to consistently design and build its own fighter aircraft since 1945 when other countries often with much larger economies did not.

So assuming the political need was there which countries would have the technical/industrial capacity to pull something similar post 1945? Canada looks an obvious one. So would Italy and Japan. What about others like Australia or the Netherlands?

I've been thinking about this since, what, 2006 ? or even 2002, when I got regular access to the Internet. So many countries... maybe wikipedia list of the world 30 biggest GDPs would be a good start ?

Just for a good laugh: I'm such an aviation nerd, I could almost detail "the big aircraft company" of every single of these countries (minus China: never quite understood their logic and conglomerates).

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[martinbayer]

Don't forget that Sweden also designed and built warships, submarines and an unconventional main battle tank, is involved in Ariane 5 and 6, is home to Esrange Space Center, and has a car company (down from two) as well as ABBA. NATO got a powerhouse winner there. Thanks, Vlad!

 

[Archibald]

Japan: T-1 / T-2 / F-1 / F-2 - Mitsubishi

Germany: VJ-101 / VAK-191

India: Hindustan / HAL Marut, Tejas

United Kingdom: Bae Hawk 200, Harrier

France: Dassault Rafale (but also: Aerospatiale A-7, Breguet Br.1260 AlphaJet, and EADS Mako...)

Italy: Aermacchi M-346

Canada: Avro Canada / Canadair / Bombardier / DHC (wipe down a few tears)

Brazil: Embraer

Russia: Mig, Sukhoi, Yakovlev (screw their present obscure names)

South Korea: KAI A/T-50 & Boramae (welcome to the club !)

Australia: CAC (once uppon a time... CA-23, CA-31, AA-107... )

Mexico: ---------------------------------------

Spain: CASA, obviously. Ha-200 and Ha-300...

Indonesia: ??----------------------------------

Netherlands: Fokker (before 1996, alas)

Saudi Arabia: ---------------------------------

Turkey: TFX (I don't wish them a F-111 nor a McNamara ROTFL)

Switzerland: Aiguillon and P-16 (loved those two: awesome)

Taiwan: AIDC, Ching Kuo

Poland: PZL, obviously

Argentina: FMA, obviously. Dewoitine, Kurt Tank, the Horten brothers... and later: the Pampa.

Belgium: SABCA, and Renard before them (Belgium's own Spitfire !)

Sweden: SAAB

Ireland: ---------------------------------------------

Thailand:--------------------------------------------

Norway:---------------------------------------------

Israel: IAI: Kfir, Lavi. Enough said.

Singapore ???

"Gentlemen, start your engines !"

 

[Archibald]

Don't forget that Sweden also built warships, submarines and a main battle tank, is involved in Ariane 5 and 6, and has a car company (down from two) as well as ABBA. NATO got a winner there.

The winner takes it all: the loser better call Saul... besides Chuck's chicanery... that's their destiny...

 

[TomcatViP]

Don't forget that Sweden total population is only 10M, dispersed over a vast and long territory, edging for an half with close to polar lattitudes, covered in most part with snow up until April.
Those are not parameters that bode for such results.
Imagine Paris population spread out from Normandy to Andalusia , in Spain but with a colder than alpine weather...

Humm, might spare Frenches some troubles!

Size of France compared to Sweden

How big is France compared to Sweden? View both areas on a map to see a relative size comparison.

www.mylifeelsewhere.com

 

[kaiserbill]

GDP is not a good way of looking at it at all.
South Korea is an example.
Compare South Korea's GDP ranking in each decade to see why.
Also Argentina, Australia's, Brazil, South Africa's etc. rankings per decade to illustrate why this is not a good metric to use at all.

 

[Archibald]

GDP is not a good way of looking at it at all.
South Korea is an example.
Compare South Korea's GDP ranking in each decade to see why.
Also Argentina, Australia's, Brazil, South Africa's etc. rankings per decade to illustrate why this is not a good metric to use at all.

Oh please, feel free to find a better list of countries as a starting point.

 

[NoBarrelRolls]

The winner takes it all: the loser better call Saul... besides Chuck's chicanery... that's their destiny...

Liked the “Better call Saul” reference there…

 

[TheKutKu]

Yugoslavia comes to mind as a country which had a respectable , operational, military jet aircraft industry, produced several attack and trainer planes and had the geopolitical motives To not be dependant on superpowers. Maybe they could have made a fighter before the novi avion project.

Of course there’s the slight problem of the dislocation of the country, Serbia having less ressources, SOKO (itself relocated from Belgrade post war) ending up in Bosnia after the independences. This alternative history would likely have to be a geopolitical one.

Although the thought of small Bosnia making 4th gen fighters is entertaining.

note: as surprising as it may sound; Yugoslavia and Sweden had about the same gdp (CIA estimate... gdp is even less tangible in socialist economies) 33 years ago...

 

[southwestforests]

as well as ABBA. NATO got a winner there.

Sweden to NATO,
"
Honey, I'm still free
Take a chance on me
"

 

[uk 75]

India, Sweden, and Yugoslavia were strongly non-aligned neutrals in the Cold War.
All had clear military threats which needed a strong military response, eapecially in combat aircraft
Argentina, Brazil, South Africa, and Switzerland were not members of alliances either but were firmly in the western camp for political and economic reasons. All did develop combat aircraft of their own but where possible sourced from key US, UK or French manufacturers.
Austria and Finland had good defence industries but were limited by treaties as to what aircraft they could operate.
Where countries were in NATO or the Warsaw Pact political and economic factors tended to make their own designs uncompetitive with US ones in particular and to some extent UK and French ones.

 

[Arjen]

Sweden had a head start. The Netherlands, Belgium, Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and Hungary all developed aircraft before WW2 started. German occupation nixed that during WW2. Rebuilding industry after the war was difficult enough for the Marshall-aid receiving Dutch and Belgians, more difficult for the others.

 

[Kat Tsun]

Korea. Japan. Arguably Israel. Brazil, Italy, and South Africa at one time. Turkey seems committed to getting there.

ROC is the closest to Sweden. The F-CK 1 and Viggen sit at about the same amount of indigenous to American components.

 

[zen]

So assuming the political need was there which countries would have the technical/industrial capacity to pull something similar post 1945?

Ok, well a host have the technical capability. But few had sufficient driving need to actually make it happen.
Sweden built it's forces to defend against one threat. Russia.
Which sat just over the other side of the Baltic Sea.

So, say increase the threat from Yugoslavia or make Italy less inclined to join NATO, and they could achieve something similar.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Japan: T-1 / T-2 / F-1 / F-2 - Mitsubishi

Kawasaki also makes a lot of aircraft, starting with the T-4 trainer and then the C-1, C-2, and P-1 heavy aircraft; plus the BK117 and OH-1 Ninja helicopters; building on years of local production of various aircraft.

 

[zjz]

Once upon a time, the Italian made the G.91 for NATO .....

 

[pathology_doc]

A lot of unique avionics, mind you.

I recall reading somewhere that they made improvements to their license-built AIM-4's that made them at least the equivalent of what the XAIM-4H would have been, had it gone into service.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I recall reading somewhere that they made improvements to their license-built AIM-4's that made them at least the equivalent of what the XAIM-4H would have been, had it gone into service.

Wouldn't be hard, the AIM-4s were pretty terrible.

 

[pathology_doc]

Wouldn't be hard, the AIM-4s were pretty terrible.

Kill rate was in the same percentage range as Sparrow and Sidewinder, but Falcon did it without a proximity fuze. IIRC each of Greece and Turkey claimed a Falcon kill against the other in their scrap, but there's no information on how many each one fired.

AIM-4H was supposed to get tidied up and get a proximity fuze to boot, but I recall reading somewhere that Robin Olds was so embittered by -4D's issues costing him ace status that he did everything he could to get it killed. It's amazing that they didn't go on to give the weapon a massive improvement programme, since it armed the USAF's primary home defence interceptor.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Kill rate was in the same percentage range as Sparrow and Sidewinder, but Falcon did it without a proximity fuze. IIRC each of Greece and Turkey claimed a Falcon kill against the other in their scrap, but there's no information on how many each one fired.

8%? Like I said, terrible.

AIM-4H was supposed to get tidied up and get a proximity fuze to boot, but I recall reading somewhere that Robin Olds was so embittered by -4D's issues costing him ace status that he did everything he could to get it killed. It's amazing that they didn't go on to give the weapon a massive improvement programme, since it armed the USAF's primary home defence interceptor.

Falcons were terrible against fighters, acceptable against bombers.

 

[Lascaris]

Kill rate was in the same percentage range as Sparrow and Sidewinder, but Falcon did it without a proximity fuze. IIRC each of Greece and Turkey claimed a Falcon kill against the other in their scrap, but there's no information on how many each one fired.

AIM-4H was supposed to get tidied up and get a proximity fuze to boot, but I recall reading somewhere that Robin Olds was so embittered by -4D's issues costing him ace status that he did everything he could to get it killed. It's amazing that they didn't go on to give the weapon a massive improvement programme, since it armed the USAF's primary home defence interceptor.

Dinopoulos and Skambardonis were flying F-5As when jumped by Turkish F-102s. The F-102 downed was killed by an AIM-9 not from a Falcon, which F-5 was not using in the first place.

 

[Ainen]

Well, the less umbrella security guarantees around the world, the more countries will feel the urge to develop military industry and engineering ecosystems.

No superpower - more regional/semi-global powers with their system ecosystems for new "Swedens" to rely on. Sweden is simply the best-known example (doing the same, uninterrupted engineering policy thing continuously since the early 17th century).
Arguably not even the most impressive one - as that title probably goes to DPRK (industrial power, largely cut off from the tech world, for 2k bucks per capita - and that with just 25 mil people). Human talent isn't measured in bucks per capita.

At the same time, though - compared to today - no global ecosystem of extremely capable civilian components (the one which is starting to show cracks right now).

 

[pathology_doc]

Dinopoulos and Skambardonis were flying F-5As when jumped by Turkish F-102s. The F-102 downed was killed by an AIM-9 not from a Falcon, which F-5 was not using in the first place.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[BullpupRafale]

Well, the less umbrella security guarantees around the world, the more countries will feel the urge to develop military industry and engineering ecosystems.

No superpower - more regional/semi-global powers with their system ecosystems for new "Swedens" to rely on. Sweden is simply the best-known example (doing the same, uninterrupted engineering policy thing continuously since the early 17th century).
Arguably not even the most impressive one - as that title probably goes to DPRK (industrial power, largely cut off from the tech world, for 2k bucks per capita - and that with just 25 mil people). Human talent isn't measured in bucks per capita.

At the same time, though - compared to today - no global ecosystem of extremely capable civilian components (the one which is starting to show cracks right now).

It is within reasonable possibility that DPRK could manufacturer equivalent to Z-19 light attack helicopter and JF-17 light fighter jet by end of this decade.