Luftwaffe 1946; real or fake?

[Flitzer]

Hi

I realise this has been discussed numerous times before and forgive me if I’m playing an old record but an idea dawned on me recently.

There are many dubious designs out there labelled as genuine German projects but I asked myself why? Why would anyone produce these designs and pretend they were from for example Messerschmitt or Heinkel produced designs, during the war?

Understanding that many genuine designs, mock ups, and prototypes fell into allied hands, and a great number of technical staff were offered positions with allied aircraft companies. My first thought was maybe these bogus designs might be the first ideas from such staff in their new surroundings, basically carrying on where they left off.

Then I wondered are they not part of some propaganda smoke screen?
By the end of WW2 relationships between the ‘Western’ and Eastern’ allies had already become strained and immediately after had become a rift.
Were these bogus ‘red herring’ designs leaked to confuse and keep the other side guessing what you really did have?
Just another development of information and disinformation?

I’d be interested what anyone might think.
Again apologies if this is old hat.

Many thanks
P

 

[Bailey]

I suspect that some designs (or thoughts) were created by German aviation industry personnel as a form of curriculum vitae to justify their inclusion in Operation Paperclip and it's Soviet equivalent. Basically look at what we have been working on, how clever we are, you need our expertise etc.

Neither would I be surprised, if after evaluation, the duff designs were released as a form of disinformation to steer both enemy and potential competitors in a false direction.

Regards Bailey.

 

[Jemiba]

" suspect that some designs (or thoughts) were created by German aviation industry personnel as a
form of curriculum vitae to justify their inclusion in Operation Paperclip and it's Soviet equivalent."

I think, such "disinformation" had already started earlier. The danger of being sent from the relatively
safe design office to the front was very real ! Chief designers attempted to keep their teams intact.
What probably was the best way to do this ? The german high command knew very well, that they
already had lost the “battle for production numbers”, so an “offensive for performance” was started.
The industry, then still mainly privately owned, was under pressure to prove being able to produce such
aircraft, otherwise the owners had to face expropriation.

Other "projects" probably weren't launched by industry personal, but by members of the research
institutions. The german system was quite "inventor" based, so ideas stemming from high ranking
scientists sometimes got more attention, than they actually deserved. This point was stated by Ralf
Schabel in "Illusion der Wunderwaffen".

And another reason, why one or another "project" found its way into specialist literature may be explained
by the following story:
About three years ago, I was on the yearly "Militär- and Weapons Börse" (militaria and weapons
exchange) here in Berlin, actually a meeting of militaria collectors, but of a lot of second-hand book
sellers, too. But there were also several stalls of publishers, offering publications about all kinds
of weapons and (probably due to the place) mainly about WW II german ones. At one stall, offering
publications about quite weird german infantry weapons and tanks, I could listen to the conversation
between two customers, looking for a special type of tank and the salesperson, who, to my opinion
was the publisher himself. His "publications" weren't much more, than stapled copies and printouts.
No, he hadn't anything about it, but yes, he had heard of it and he'll try to use his good relations to
the publisher, who maybe bring out a survey during the next months ... :
Honestly, I wasn't aware before, that you can actually order "documentations" about your personal
"secret project". I was tempted to "order" something by myself, but there wasn't anything about
aircraft, just tanks. ;D
No, I don't think, that someone here would be fooled by such concotions, but there's a lot of them and
maybe sometimes in much better quality, than I've seen. It's a market, quite a large market,as it's not
only for the aviation freaks !

 

[Michel Van]

i go a step further

i think that German aviation industry produce those "dubious designs"
to have better chance with this "innovative weaponsystem"
and get a order by Reichsluftfahrtministerium
Reichsluftfahrtministerium=Reich Air Ministry

After the World War 2 allot stuff was publish on base on rumors, wrong translation.

 

[Bailey]

I think, such "disinformation" had already started earlier. The danger of being sent from the relatively safe design office to the front was very real !

A very good point. I can certainly imagine this scenario.

Regards Bailey.

 

[Flitzer]

I think, such "disinformation" had already started earlier. The danger of being sent from the relatively safe design office to the front was very real !

A very good point. I can certainly imagine this scenario.

Regards Bailey.

So basically the art of 'disinformation' was already in effect during WW2 (which I can fully understand) and it just carried on after into the Cold War period by all involved parties on both sides.

Many thanks
P

 

[Artie Bob]

Possibly a primary reason that so much is available on the German aircraft industry's projects is simply the result of the highly organized GB-USA intelligence program to study, analyze and exploit German technology. Much of the iformation was quickly released(in the USA) as public domain and is still today one of the best sources for researching this subject. For Axis aviation, a catalog of document descriptions of around 5000 pages was available by 1946. The subjects were primarily the latest iterms chronologically, as these were most likely to incorporate the latest technology. For example, there is very little material on the Ju 88, but a great deal on the Ju 388. This material was later returned to Germany. And do not think that the personnel that went to Germany right behind the combat troops were simply a bunch of paper pushers. I have a list of the team that went to Messerschmitt and it included senior engineering personnel from several of the major US aircraft companies. The staffing for this intelligence operation was probably in the thousands and highly organized. If you are an engineer, and spend a few years looking at this material, I believe that you would come to the conclusion that it is the real stuff. Orion-blam-blam's comments are IMHO, right on target. Perhaps Lippisch's work is a good example, the Me 163 was the end result of years of experimentation and progress in aerodynamics. The prototypes were flying years before Germany lookeed like it was losing the war. The later designs were progessions in the sequence began over a decade before. That said, the Me 163 was in my eyes, the most advanced aircraft type to see service in WW II. However, it possibly killed more Germans than Allies and the resources expended might well have helped Germany's war effortbetter, if diverted to other ends. Another example is the B-29. The USSR had almost total access to much of Germany's advanced aviation technology. Yet, it was the conventional, but advanced and useful US design that was clandestinely copied and became the begining of a design sequence that led to the "Bears" still operational? today.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

 

[Bailey]

If you are an engineer, and spend a few years looking at this material, I believe that you would come to the conclusion that it is the real stuff.

I agree that there was a great deal of "Real stuff", but at the same time a whole industry has grown up around Luft 46 projects and it is now getting much harder to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Quote from Orionblamblam here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9387.0.html

There is one other: they lost. Why this is important in this instance is this: when they lost, their archives and design bureaus got thrown open for the world to see and catalog. The designers themselves openly publicized their work in order to bribe their way into better post-war circumstances

Again I agree with this comment, but I still suspect that there was some "creative" work interspersed with the real stuff.

Regards Bailey.

 

[Flitzer]

If it is true that there was a continuing disinformation programme, then it seems to have done a good job.
Otherwise would we be discussing this subject as we are now?

I also tend to agree with Artie Bob on the fact much captured data was made public by GB-USA intelligence.
But what of the East's equivalent?

P