Looting and pillaging

[riggerrob]

I recently had dinner with a friend who was born in Ukraine, but left in 1992. We grumbled about all the damage being done during the latest Russian invasion of Ukraine. One thing we both found odd was all the household appliances: washers, driers, etc. looted by Russian soldiers. Given the few lashings, I suspect that half would have fallen off of their tanks and been wrecked long before they could be taken back home to Russia. What a waste!
My Ukrainian friend explained that many of these Russians soldiers came form villages to backward to afford washing machines.
Most amusing was news that John Deere disabled stolen farm tractors remotely by disabling the software needed to run their engines.

This got me wondering about looting and pillaging traditions back through the centuries. Back in biblical times, invaders used to put the men to the sword, rape the cattle, stampede the women and sell the children into slavery. They'd poison wells, salt the fields and set fire to any buildings. The little loot remaining tended to include only a little clothing, a little furniture and maybe the odd gold coin. Loot from later wars included religious statues, Egyptian obelisks, Egyptian mummies, etc. Paintings of Napoleon's retreat form Moscow show French soldiers struggling to carry looted oil paintings, silk dresses, etc. few of these looted goods every reached France since large chunks of Napoleon's army froze of starved to death long before they returned to "la belle France."
More modern looting has included entire national treasuries and the technological remains to Hitler's Wonder Weapons (see Operation Paperclip in the USA).

What will future looting include?
What good is a looted cell phone if Nokia can disable it from afar?

 

[Orionblamblam]

I would dispute the US seizing Nazi Germany's tech as "looting." You start a war, it's not unreasonable for the enemy to take your weapons from you. Thus the Ukrainian farmers are hardly "looting" Russian tanks and such.

What *was* looting was taking non-military/industrial stuff... personal property and art, for instance. And in that case, the US anti-looted with the Monuments Men. Anyone else (looking at *you,* Stalin) would have appropriated the art the Nazis stole.

Future looting will be dependant upon a lot of stuff. If the Ukraine war was fought by the US rather than Russia, there'd be little to no looting of household appliances; Americans don't need 'em. A more advanced, prosperous military is unlikely to steal folks cell phones for the simple fact that the soldiers will already have better ones. *Any* military will have soldiers more than happy to walk off with gold and jewelry and such, if they can get away with it... and if the locals have it. Hutus vs Tutsis? Both sides are poor, they'll take whatever they can get. The US invades Ubombistan... what do they have that the soldiers want to walk off with?

 

[sferrin]

Looting gone wrong:

 

[GTX]

The US is not immune from this:

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/who-looting-and-us-troops.html?safari=1

UK Accuses US Soldiers of Stealing Remnants of Historic Battle in Afghanistan

Military artifacts and personal possessions left by the British troops in the 19th century during the Battle of Maiwand were stolen by the US troops in Afghanistan in 2009. The British Ministry of Defense (MoD) claimed on Monday that US troops may have 'broken international law' after many of...

english.aawsat.com

That said I think you will find every army has experienced cases of this.

 

[sferrin]

The US is not immune from this:

Did somebody say they were? I recall reading a story about a couple Marines trying to get a quad AAA piece shipped home from Iraq after Desert Storm. They got caught obviously.

 

[muttly]

Just remember, pillage before you burn.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The US is not immune from this:

One might argue that there are three levels of military looting:
1) The soldiers take stuff, but are actively arrested and prosecuted by their own military for doing so.
2) The soldiers take stuff, but the military leadership turns a blind eye to it.
2A) The soldiers take stuff, with the quiet *approval* of the military leadership (as a way to weaken the opposition, or just out of mean spiritedness)
3) The military itself takes stuff.

The US *usually* falls in category 1. Right now, the Russian military in Ukraine is clearly at level 2, and arguably level 3 (the Russian military is taking whole chunks of Ukraine, so...)

 

[sferrin]

The US is not immune from this:

One might argue that there are three levels of military looting:
1) The soldiers take stuff, but are actively arrested and prosecuted by their own military for doing so.
2) The soldiers take stuff, but the military leadership turns a blind eye to it.
2A) The soldiers take stuff, with the quiet *approval* of the military leadership (as a way to weaken the opposition, or just out of mean spiritedness)
3) The military itself takes stuff.

The US *usually* falls in category 1. Right now, the Russian military in Ukraine is clearly at level 2, and arguably level 3 (the Russian military is taking whole chunks of Ukraine, so...)

Yeah, remember all the, "the US is in Iraq to steal all it's oil" nonsense? Did even a single tanker of Iraqi oil get shipped to the US as war booty?

 

[riggerrob]

" ... 2) The soldiers take stuff, but the military leadership turns a blind eye to it.
2A) The soldiers take stuff, with the quiet *approval* of the military leadership (as a way to weaken the opposition, or just out of mean spiritedness)
... "

If military officers can pocket a "percentage" of the loot, they may turn-a-blind-eye to looting.
For example, how many rubles can you profit from selling a looted washing machine back home in Russia?

 

[Archibald]

" ... 2) The soldiers take stuff, but the military leadership turns a blind eye to it.
2A) The soldiers take stuff, with the quiet *approval* of the military leadership (as a way to weaken the opposition, or just out of mean spiritedness)
... "

If military officers can pocket a "percentage" of the loot, they may turn-a-blind-eye to looting.
For example, how many rubles can you profit from selling a looted washing machine back home in Russia?

The Russians for sure are making a lot of rubble(s) in Ukraine (runs for cover).

Is the russian ruble even worth rubble those days ? (where is that coat ?)

 

[uk 75]

Sadly even the best disciplined armies can misbehave.
My late father entered Belgium as a wireless operator in a Royal Engineers Churchill AVRE. On a particularly cold night crews found some firewood and warmed themselves. An irate Belgian farmer soon appeared and berated their officer in English "The Germans never touched my wood and your soldiers have burnt it all in one night!" Resulting Barrack Room damages led to the wood becoming "5 Frank bundles".
As the Engineers moved through Holland into Germany Dad witnessed many random acts of vandalism against the lovingly tended china ornaments which had survived the Nazis. British soldiers seemingly found relief in this revolt against the strict instructions from Officers not to loot.
My father even drew a Christmas card for his mates with their AVRE towing a sled load of typical household items and an officer with a world bubble "This looks suspiciously like loot"

 

[uk 75]

One of the interesting speculations in the final years of the Cold War was how Soviet units would react to the huge West German supermarkets and shopping centres that they would soon encounter in the towns and even villages along the border.

West German Home Defence troops well equipped with MILAN, Carl Gustav and Panzerfaust weapons would also have been waiting.

Germans who experienced.Russian soldiers at the end of WW2 often told stories of their surprise at bathrooms and kitchens, especially working taps.

Such was the poor state of many British homes in 1944 with ourdoor toilets and mean heating, Dad and other soldiers were impressed by the warm flats and batnrooms they found in Holland and Belgium.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I recently had dinner with a friend who was born in Ukraine, but left in 1992. We grumbled about all the damage being done during the latest Russian invasion of Ukraine. One thing we both found odd was all the household appliances: washers, driers, etc. looted by Russian soldiers.

There are (probably apocryphal?) stories from WW2 of Russian soldiers from remote regions removing light bulbs, taps, even flushing toilets, unaware of the need for supporting plumbing or electricity.

Not sure this topic is very germane to the forum however.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Not sure this topic is very germane to the forum however.

How about if we discuss soldiers stealing "secret project" books from enemy bookstores?

 

[riggerrob]

""We have reports from Ukrainians that when they find Russian military equipment on the ground, it's filled with semi conductors that they took out of dishwashers and refrigerators". Gina Raimondo, America's commerce secretary told Congress in May."
Economist magazine, July 2, 2022.

So now Russians are beating refrigerators into swords ... awkward paraphrase of the Bible.

 

[Archibald]

Surely enough you can kill somebody with a fridge as much as with a sword. To spoof Churchill own spoof "if you aim well !"

 

[Orionblamblam]

Surely enough you can kill somebody with a fridge as much as with a sword.

A fridge does seem a dangerous implement.