Loire and Loire-Nieuport Projects & Prototypes

[hesham]

Loire 40 :single seat lightweight fighter with 300 hp Gnome-Rhone Titan II engine.

Loire 41 : ,, ,, ,, ,, with 500 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Mc engine.

Loire 42 : ,, ,, ,, ,, with 420 hp Gnome-Rhone 9 Asb Jupiter VII engine.

Loire-240 :torpedo bomber project.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


I know the Loire-Nieuport LN-60 was a single seat fighter project,but in that site,
they talk about it as seaplane,who is right ?;


http://fandavion.free.fr/SNCAO200-histoire.htm

 

[Stargazer]

I know the Loire-Nieuport LN-60 was a single seat fighter project,but in that site,
they talk about it as seaplane,who is right ?;

Wasn't the single-seat fighter the Nieuport 60 and the seaplane the LN-60?

 

[hesham]

Wasn't the single-seat fighter the Nieuport 60 and the seaplane the LN-60?

No Stargazer,the Nieuport 60 was a low-wing four engined bomber seaplane project,
of HB.4 designation,and the LN-60 as I know was a single seat fighter,but the site
which I mentioned it make me confuse.

 

[Stargazer]

Wasn't the single-seat fighter the Nieuport 60 and the seaplane the LN-60?

No Stargazer,the Nieuport 60 was a low-wing four engined bomber seaplane project,
of HB.4 designation,and the LN-60 as I know was a single seat fighter,but the site
which I mentioned it make me confuse.

Strange. Here is the Nieuport 60 that I know about:

 

[hesham]

Impossible Stargazer,


the aircraft you display it was from WW1,and the Nieuport NiD-60 or NiD-600
was here;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6481.0.html

 

[Stargazer]

Impossible Stargazer

What is impossible? It WAS called the Nieuport LX (which means "60" in Roman figures). So now we have THREE "Nieuport 60" candidates!

 

[Jemiba]

Maybe you both are right, as the "Nieuport LX" or with the roman numbers translated "Nieuport 60" (although
I don't know, if it was meant that way) still was from the era, when all products were simply designated as
"Nieuport XX", although Gustav Delage already was chief designer. The designation "NiD 60", I've found only in
one list, without further explanation (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_d'a%C3%A9ronefs_(N-S))), so I'm not sure
if it really is identical to the "NiD 600", but as it is said to have been a derivative of the NiD 50, it would at least be
somewhat logical, but this designation seems not to have lasted long. So it was already available again for the aircraft,
that eventually became the CAO 200. Double use of designations wasn't that uncommon, especially not for unbuild types.
Just my two cents ...

 

[hesham]

My dears Jemiba and Stargazer,


the Nieuport early fighters used by many countries,and they gave it many names,
for examples,do you know the Nieuport Model-110 and Model-11000,those aircraft
was built by Italian Macchi Company,and they are not official designations in Nieuport
company or in France,and that designation LX was given to Nieuport Ni.28 and don't
mean any thing to Nieuport system;
http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage.php?immat=LX-NIE


for the Nieuport Ni.60,here is an article from Hydroretro site;

 

[Stargazer]

that designation LX was given to Nieuport Ni.28

Certainly not. The two designs are not the same.

 

[hesham]

They are the same,the LX-NIE was a private aircraft from Ni.28;


http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/211972/lx-nie-private-nieuport-28c1/

 

[toura]

HI ALL
Iknow the loire 60 Hydro
(From Aviafrance)
and the Loire Nieuport 60 Figther
(From an old "Aviation Magazine)

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Toura,


great info.

 

[toura]

Always at the "Grand Palais" air show
the LN 60........but.....on the tail fin we could
read the number 200 !

 

[hesham]

Great my dear Toura,


but that will lead us to ask,was there a designation called LN-50 ?.

 

[Maveric]

Hey toura, looks like the SNCA del Quest CAO-200 ???

 

[Jemiba]

... for the Nieuport Ni.60,here is an article from Hydroretro site;

Indeed, but did you notice, that only in the heading "NiD.60" is mentioned, but not in the text ?
The caption says "Ni.D600" and in the wikipedia list, the "NiD.60" is just mentioned without any
further information. Could imagine, that it was just copied from Gérard Hartmanns site. I'm still
missing a reliable evidence.

 

[hesham]

My dear Jemiba,


please look to the end page at the second table,many aircraft in Nieuport
designation were taken the same reference,such as Ni-560 means Ni-56,
Ni-640 means Ni-64,and for the Ni-60,you would see it as it written in
the heading.

 

[Jemiba]

Well, about the "Nieuport 60" I've found that page http://aviadrix.blogspot.de/2012/02/les-series-experimentales-de-chasseurs.html,
more interesting, than just the mentioning of this type, may be what is said about the designation system .... :
You're right, that "NiD 60" is used twice indeed, but it's still the same source, the only source, so maybe based on the
same error ? Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely no specialist for Nieuport aircraft and from all we know until now, it
could well be a double use. There's the logic in the "updating" of the number (50 for the twin-, 60 for the four engined type),
cutting off the last digit of a type number, or better expanding the designation by an additional digit can be found with other
types, too and as the "NiD 60" actually wasn't used (this flying boat remained a paper tiger), why not use it again, for an
aircraft, that actually took to the air ?
Nevertheless, we cannot take it for certain and I wouldn't recommend taking a single source as evidence. I really like Gérard
Hartmanns and I'm still hoping for more, but even his work isn't completely free of errors.

 

[hesham]

My dear Jemiba,


the site you mention speaks about Nieuport 60 and Nieuport 161 was a brief designation
for the Loire-Nieuport designation,the meant LN-60 and LN-161,after Loire amalgamated
with Nieuport,that branch of Loire,left the aircraft creation to the Nieuport itself,and Loire
continued to develop and project its own designs.


Look to the translation,there is no Nieuport Ni.60 as a fighter,but Loire-Nieuport LN-60
fighter;


the SNCAO (Nieuport) CAD 200

• This aircraft is in fact the Nieuport 60 and he succeeded Nieuport 161 (named after the Loire-Nieuport 161 but considered by the study office Nieuport).

 

[Stargazer]

I'm convinced that one of these two "60" types must have been a typo at some point for "600".

 

[hesham]

I'm convinced that one of these two "60" types must have been a typo at some point for "600".

Stargazer no,the later aircraft was called Loire-Nieuport LN-60,or briefly Nieuport 60 (not official),and
it was not related to NiD-60,and for the NiD-600 was the same aircraft as NiD-60.

 

[Jemiba]

I'm convinced that one of these two "60" types must have been a typo at some point for "600".

Well, I'm thinking, too, that there's an error or misinterpretation somewhere. But we are talking
about a very limited amount of data. so ure speculation. BTW,

that designation LX was given to Nieuport Ni.28

"LX" simply is the registration of Luxembourg !

 

[lark]

Gentlemen,

To set things clear:

From :Aviation International magazine No 723 - 1 to 14 février 1978

LN 60 (C1-1937) Devenu CAO 200

article : Les Avions Nieuport -Jean Liron

 

[Stargazer]

hesham, I hate to be off-topic, but from the following profile (taken from the same document as the LX), you can see clearly that the letters indicate a TYPE NUMBER. In this example, the Nieuport 23 (XXIII). Nothing to do with Luxembourg!

 

[hesham]

My dears,


this aircraft which Stragazer displayed it,was from WW1 or after it immediately,the
Nieuport NiD-60 was not re-allocated,simply it was not use by that time,and I said
before many countries used Nieuport aircraft,but with there designation,again such
as Nieuport 110 and Nieuport 11000.

 

[Jemiba]

.. Nothing to do with Luxembourg!

I think, I should have made it clearer:
The Replica Nieuport 28 shown by hesham via the link to airplane-pictures.net simply
is registered in Luxembourg, thus carrying the registratin (NOT designation) LX-NIE
and as such it can be found via Google very easily. But of course, this wasn't a
designation !

 

[Maveric]

Thanks Paul, this was the info I need!

 

[Stargazer]

I think, I should have made it clearer:

No worries, your post was clear enough for me! It's hesham that got completely mixed up between an actual Nieuport LX (60) design and the LX-registered Nieuport (probably a Model 28).

 

[aviadrix]

Well, about the "Nieuport 60" I've found that page http://aviadrix.blogspot.de/2012/02/les-series-experimentales-de-chasseurs.html,
more interesting, than just the mentioning of this type, may be what is said about the designation system .... :
You're right, that "NiD 60" is used twice indeed, but it's still the same source, the only source, so maybe based on the
same error ? Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely no specialist for Nieuport aircraft and from all we know until now, it
could well be a double use. There's the logic in the "updating" of the number (50 for the twin-, 60 for the four engined type),
cutting off the last digit of a type number, or better expanding the designation by an additional digit can be found with other
types, too and as the "NiD 60" actually wasn't used (this flying boat remained a paper tiger), why not use it again, for an
aircraft, that actually took to the air ?
Nevertheless, we cannot take it for certain and I wouldn't recommend taking a single source as evidence. I really like Gérard
Hartmanns and I'm still hoping for more, but even his work isn't completely free of errors.

Hello, I'm the author of the post you have cited.
I agree completely with you about the "complexity" affecting the type numbers in the Nieuport aircraft production.

As an help for you is to remember that the Roman numeration was used in the Nieuport company only before 1918.
The designation Nie XXIX was changed to Ni D 29 C1.
The D is for engineer Delage who was the CEO of the Nieuport company.
This system was in use until the Ni D 121, 122, 125, 225 fighters.
In 1933, engineer Delage had left his company.

The Loire yards company purchased the Nieuport one in the same year, but the two aeronautical teams stayed independent.

The Nieuport 161 was designated as Loire-Nieuport 161 only after the discarding of the Loire 250 fighter in 1936. The LN 40, 401, 402, 411 and 42 dive bomber were clearly issued from the LN 161 fighter. The NC 1080 jet carrier fighter share some characteristics of the LN 42.

In January 1937, the Loire-Nieuport company was nationalised as the SNCAO, and the projected Nieuport 60 became the CAO 200.
From this fighter, the hydro fighter CAO 500 and the aircraft carrier fighter CAO 1000 were directly issued from the CAO 200, as also the CAO 810 dive bomber project.

 

[Stargazer]

Thanks a lot aviadrix for this informative and very clear post! And welcome to our forum!

 

[Jemiba]

A very warm welcome, glad to have you here !
And please don't get me wrong with the last sentence in the mentioned post, it's something,
that simply has to be said about everyone, even for those who have Infallibility on their side.
And although OT here, could you explain briefly the shared characteristics of LN 42 and NC.1080?

 

[hesham]

In January 1937, the Loire-Nieuport company was nationalised as the SNCAO, and the projected Nieuport 60 became the CAO 200.
From this fighter, the hydro fighter CAO 500 and the aircraft carrier fighter CAO 1000 were directly issued from the CAO 200, as also the CAO 810 dive bomber project.

At first,I am not mixing between Nieuport LX registered number and Nieuport NiD-60,second
thank you Aviadrix for sharing,and I want to explain your words; (and the projected Nieuport 60
became the CAO 200),it means; and the projected Loire-Nieuport LN-60 became CAO 200.


Third,what about CAO 1000,I never heard about it before,can you tell us more about it,
data,drawing ...

 

[lark]

A bit more info about and some sources.

Translated from the French text in AviMag. 720 - 16.12.77

... last pre WWII fighter design by Nieuport ,the LN 60 wa the optimised
version of the type 161...

... in the time frame of the 'nationalisation' of the aircraft manufacturers names
and designations it was re-baptised CAO.200...

From : Warplanes of the Second world war Vol.1 Fighters by Wiliam Green
Macdonald -London-1960.

... produced to compete with the Dewoitine D.520 and exhibited
as - a full scale mockup - during the 1938 Salon de Aéronautique.

From AviMag 723 : "Les Avions Nieuport 1919 à 1940" type list Nie 29 de 1918 a CAO 600 de 21.3.1940

not a single indication of a designation ' LX ' or alike is given nor mentioned .

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Lark,


Loire-20 was projected as Colonial aircraft,powered by two 400 hp Hispano-Suiza
engines,project only.

 

[toura]

Hi all
LN 60 = CAO 200

 

[aviadrix]

In January 1937, the Loire-Nieuport company was nationalised as the SNCAO, and the projected Nieuport 60 became the CAO 200.
From this fighter, the hydro fighter CAO 500 and the aircraft carrier fighter CAO 1000 were directly issued from the CAO 200, as also the CAO 810 dive bomber project.

At first,I am not mixing between Nieuport LX registered number and Nieuport NiD-60,second
thank you Aviadrix for sharing,and I want to explain your words; (and the projected Nieuport 60
became the CAO 200),it means; and the projected Loire-Nieuport LN-60 became CAO 200.


Third,what about CAO 1000,I never heard about it before,can you tell us more about it,
data,drawing ...

Some explanations about the aircraft projects I have told you:
the CAO 500 was a twin floats fighter with a very similar fuselage than the CAO 200, a more triangular fin and rudder, and a wing enlarged by the insertion of a rectangular central section.
The CAO 1000 would have retained most of the solutions used for the hydro fighter CAO 500.

About the later jet fighter, a lateral view of the LN 42 displays some analogie of layout with the NC 1080, as you can found some analogies between the Yak 9U and the Yak 15. But that is only my opinion.

You may see tiny 3 views drawings of the CAO 500 and CAO 810 in the "bible" on Nieuport aircrafts and entitled Nieuport 1909-1950, by L. Rosenthal, A. Marchand, M. Borget and M. Bénichou, Docavia #38, 1997.
It's a good book even I was not absolutely satisfied by the section regarding the N 161 fighter, which was more completely dealt by A. Prudhomme in his article in Air Magazine #25.

 

[hesham]

Thank you Aviadrix,


and a last question for you,that we know SNCAO aircraft from CAO.200 up to COA.1000,
except CAO.400,do you hear about it ?.


Thank you my dear Toura for sharing.

 

[aviadrix]

Thank you Aviadrix,


and a last question for you,that we know SNCAO aircraft from CAO.200 up to COA.1000,
except CAO.400,do you hear about it ?.


Thank you my dear Toura for sharing.

The CAO 400 project was dedicated to the T3 program, for observation of the battle, night training.
The characteristics were: An high cantilever wing, 2 radial motors of 430 hp each, a weight of less than 3800 kg, an armament of 3 riffle caliber machine guns and a crew of 3.
Two projects were chosen instead: The Dewoitine D 720 and the Hanriot NC 530.

 

[hesham]

Thank you Aviadrix very very much,


and that means,the SNCAO CAO.400 compete Bloch MB.500,SNCAM HD-720 & HD-721,
SNCAC NC-530,Potez 63/11 and Potez 63/15 in T3 program.