bobbymike said:
Thanks for the video Triton.

Man we should have more of these, like the orginal 700 or so :D You want to talk conventional deterrent?

Or at least 243 as a bare a$$ed minimum. But now that the jet’s fate is sealed from a production stand point I’d much rather start pouring R&D into a 6th Gen platform (and it must be more multi-role) than revisiting a now cold F-22 line. We need to keep funding the upgrade spirals for the F-22 for sure but if I had it my way I’d accelerate the NGAD/NG-TACAIR to ensure production or even IOC by 2030. And I think we should aim for 5 wings of these jets as a minimum too, even sacrificing some of the late build F-35s if we have to to get there.
 
Why not keep/reopen the Raptor line, so that when the 6th Gen is ready we can sell the F-22 to our allies who might still want it along with the F-35 (Japan, Israel, Canada, etc) at that point. Still viable against the Pakfa, J-20/31 and would be great business.
 
But would it by 2030-2040?

Sure the basic airframe design is good, but putting newer avionics in it could be costly, as would applying new stealth techniques ('6th gen' aircraft may incorporate metamaterial passive emission control systems).
 
187 aircraft might have been enough in a world of 5th generation fighters... but with new types such as the T-50 PAK-FA and the J-31 well on their way, isn't it a little risky to have so few aircraft at one's disposal? Just my two cents.
 
Thats probably why they are planning on producing over 3,000 JSFs ;)

The Raptor is done people production wise. This is an aircraft that was so expensive that the country who spends over $900 billion a year on its military couldn't buy as many as it wanted. The same raptor that pilots refused to fly, that was grounded for months, and due to oxygen problems killed a pilot, and is extremely expensive to operate even after the initial (extremely) high price of the aircraft has been reconciled.

And I must say this, and I hope it doesn't start a flame war but, why is that Russia and china start developing a next generation aircraft and suddenly everything we have or are developing becomes obsolete the second it rolls out of its hanger? :eek:

I love the F-22. I have seen a demo first hand and I would describe it as "life changing" it really is incredible. I encourage everyone to find a way to see it perform in your lifetime because it truly is spectacular. But my god is it expensive.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
Thats probably why they are planning on producing over 3,000 JSFs ;)

The Raptor is done people production wise. This is an aircraft that was so expensive that the country who spends over $900 billion a year on its military couldn't buy as many as it wanted. The same raptor that pilots refused to fly, that was grounded for months, and due to oxygen problems killed a pilot, and is extremely expensive to operate even after the initial (extremely) high price of the aircraft has been reconciled.

And I must say this, and I hope it doesn't start a flame war but, why is that Russia and china start developing a next generation aircraft and suddenly everything we have or are developing becomes obsolete the second it rolls out of its hanger? :eek:

I love the F-22. I have seen a demo first hand and I would describe it as "life changing" it really is incredible. I encourage everyone to find a way to see it perform in your lifetime because it truly is spectacular. But my god is it expensive.

And to add to what you said, we first flew the YF-22 over twenty years ago. It's going to be ten years before Russia and China are going to have any real operational capability in their new "stealth" fighters and both of them are finding it more expensive than they expected as well. It will be interesting to see how many of each model they end up with and how capable their systems really are once they're on the flight line.
 
Yes the number of F-22 is a little, but DOD want to built a demonstrator of new fighter in 5 years, surely the 6th gen fighter prototype, when T-50 and J-20 will be operationnal we will see the first 6th gen fighter become a reality. F-35 in number, 187 F-22 and new F/X UASF and LRS/B USAF will stay the greater air force in the world.
 
Sundog said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
Thats probably why they are planning on producing over 3,000 JSFs ;)

The Raptor is done people production wise. This is an aircraft that was so expensive that the country who spends over $900 billion a year on its military couldn't buy as many as it wanted. The same raptor that pilots refused to fly, that was grounded for months, and due to oxygen problems killed a pilot, and is extremely expensive to operate even after the initial (extremely) high price of the aircraft has been reconciled.

And I must say this, and I hope it doesn't start a flame war but, why is that Russia and china start developing a next generation aircraft and suddenly everything we have or are developing becomes obsolete the second it rolls out of its hanger? :eek:

I love the F-22. I have seen a demo first hand and I would describe it as "life changing" it really is incredible. I encourage everyone to find a way to see it perform in your lifetime because it truly is spectacular. But my god is it expensive.

And to add to what you said, we first flew the FYF-22 over twenty years ago. It's going to be ten years before Russia and China are going to have any real operational capability in their new "stealth" fighters and both of them are finding it more expensive than they expected as well. It will be interesting to see how many of each model they end up with and how capable their systems really are once they're on the flight line.

I couldn't agree more. This learning curve is extreme, and they will run head long into the same problems the west has been struggling through. It will be fascinating to see what they choose to emphasize or trade off
 
I was reading trough the updates on the Defense Industry Daily link provided earlier...

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f22-raptor-procurement-events-updated-02908/

and found this paragraph interesting.

One Raptor pilot told Flight International that:[/color]“We’ve been screaming for years that the F-22 needs to have the capability fielded, and fast… Once the jets transitions from BVR [beyond visual range] to WVR [within visual range] with only AIM-9M-9s it is hugely vulnerable…”[/color]The pilots like the AIM-9X’s added range, which extends to beyond visual range levels when launched at supercruise speed, and its ability to lock-on after launch. The problem is that without an HMD like the JHMCS I/II on other USAF fighters, or the Thales (Gentex) Scorpion that equips A-10s and some Air National Guard F-16s, the pilots can’t take full advantage of the missile’s full targeting cone. It doesn’t help that AIM-9X Block II’s one cited deficiency is helmetless high off-boresight (HHOBS) performance, but a fix can be expected by 2017.
The Raptor may be able to out-turn anyone, but an opponent with 30 degrees more sighting cone to work with doesn’t have to maneuver as hard. As experiences with the Eurofighter show (q.v. June 30/12 entry), some 4+ generation aircraft do approach the F-22′s capabilities in close. Russian thrust-vectoring designs like the MiG-35, SU-30SM, and SU-35 may also fall into this category, and top-end SRAAMs can even create openings against the F-22′s infrared masking countermeasures.

[font=verdana, geneva, lucidasans, lucidagrande, lucidasansunicode, sans-serif]There are also an increasing number of upgrades originally planned to be introduced and are now nowhere to be found on the upgrade roadmap


PUB_F-22_Modernization_Changes_2005-2011_GAO_lg.gif


Things like that:

[/font]
The USAF also cut full SDB-I integration, which offered the ability to release all of the plane’s bombs at once against 8 separate targets. That can be very useful in some tactical situations, allowing just one screaming pass over defended and dispersed targets: airfields, air defense complexes, etc.

Does not seam the F-22 is the top priority any more...
 
Found this via Ares on Danger Room: Air Force to Stealth Fighter Pilots: Get Used to Coughing Fits
I find the USAF leadership's attitude towards their pilots disturbing.

The Air Force has some bad news for the pilots of its F-22 Raptor stealth fighters: Your planes are going to make you feel crappy and there’s not much anyone can do about it. And the message to the maintainers of the radar-evading jet is even more depressing. Any illness they feel from working around the Raptor is apparently all in their heads, according to the Air Force.

Those admissions, buried in newly released Congressional records, represent the latest twist in the years-long saga of the F-22′s faulty oxygen system, which since at least 2008 has been choking pilots, leading to confusion, memory loss and blackouts — combined known as hypoxia — that may have contributed to at least one fatal crash. Ground crews have also reported growing sick while working around F-22s whose engines are running.

The Air Force claims its has a handle on the in-flight blackouts. All 180 or so F-22s are having faulty filters removed and new backup oxygen generators installed. There have also been changes to the G-suits pilots wear. But the Air Force says the alterations won’t do anything to fix the so-called “Raptor cough,” a chronic condition afflicting almost all F-22 pilots.

The coughing — which, to be clear, is a totally separate issue from hypoxia — is due to a condition known as “acceleration atelectasis,” Maj. Gen. Charles Lyon, who headed the Air Force’s Raptor investigation, wrote in response to questions submitted following a September testimony before a House subcommittee. “Acceleration atelectasis results from pilots breathing high concentrations of oxygen (above 60 percent) while wearing anti-G trousers, and exposure to G-forces,” Lyon explained.

Maj. Jeremy Gordon, a Virginia Raptor flier who blew the whistle on the Air Force last year, described a typical room full of F-22 pilots where “the vast majority will be coughing a lot of the time.” One Air Force widow claimed her F-22 pilot husband’s coughing contributed to his suicide.

The coughing, Lyon continued, results from the closure of the lungs’ alveoli as oxygen-rich air is absorbed, leaving insufficient gas such as nitrogen behind to keep the alveoli open. “The normal physiologic response to re-open the alveoli is to cough,” Lyon wrote adding that an F–22 feeds its pilot higher concentrations of oxygen compared to other jets. Air Force spokesman Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis told ABC News that the Raptor’s extreme performance — flying higher and faster than most planes — could also exacerbate the cough.

“The Air Force will continue to explore further potential causes through long term breathing air analysis and human systems integration efforts,” Lyon wrote. But he offered no solution to the condition. Apparently, from the Air Force’s point of view, coughing is the cost of sitting the world’s most high-tech fighter cockpit.

With regard to the maintainers who reported symptoms alongside the oxygen-deprived F-22 pilots, Lyon wrote that the Air Force conducted extensive testing and found no evidence that the ground crews were actually sick. “None of the ground incident aircraft cockpit testing revealed anything approaching a remarkable health guidance value,” Lyon explained. “None of the maintainer blood, breath or urine samples indicated anything remarkable.”

Lyon wrote that the Air Force has ruled out any adverse health effects from toxic fluid leaks, hazardous particles from the Raptor’s stealth coating and the possible impact of breathing the F-22′s engine exhaust. If the maintainers really were sick, as they claimed, the Air Force is “confident that factors other than the life support system or the aircraft caused the ground incidents,” Lyon wrote.

The F-22, arguably the most capable jet fighting in the world, is the mainstay of the Air Force’s frontline fleet and has even gotten more money, even while the rest of the military braces for impending budget cuts. Raptor pilots and ground crews shoulder a large part of the burden of deploying American power in the sky. The flying branch’s brass seem to believe coughing, and possibly imaginary illness on the ground, are just part of the job.
Prolonged exposure to abnormally high oxygen levels is well known to cause all kinds of health problems. On the other hand, the ground personnel's possible health problems could have a common cause; this would counter-indicate oxygen poisoning
 
lantinian said:
I was reading trough the updates on the Defense Industry Daily link provided earlier...

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f22-raptor-procurement-events-updated-02908/

and found this paragraph interesting.

One Raptor pilot told Flight International that:[/color]“We’ve been screaming for years that the F-22 needs to have the capability fielded, and fast… Once the jets transitions from BVR [beyond visual range] to WVR [within visual range] with only AIM-9M-9s it is hugely vulnerable…”[/color]The pilots like the AIM-9X’s added range, which extends to beyond visual range levels when launched at supercruise speed, and its ability to lock-on after launch. The problem is that without an HMD like the JHMCS I/II on other USAF fighters, or the Thales (Gentex) Scorpion that equips A-10s and some Air National Guard F-16s, the pilots can’t take full advantage of the missile’s full targeting cone. It doesn’t help that AIM-9X Block II’s one cited deficiency is helmetless high off-boresight (HHOBS) performance, but a fix can be expected by 2017.
The Raptor may be able to out-turn anyone, but an opponent with 30 degrees more sighting cone to work with doesn’t have to maneuver as hard. As experiences with the Eurofighter show (q.v. June 30/12 entry), some 4+ generation aircraft do approach the F-22′s capabilities in close. Russian thrust-vectoring designs like the MiG-35, SU-30SM, and SU-35 may also fall into this category, and top-end SRAAMs can even create openings against the F-22′s infrared masking countermeasures.

[font=verdana, geneva, lucidasans, lucidagrande, lucidasansunicode, sans-serif]There are also an increasing number of upgrades originally planned to be introduced and are now nowhere to be found on the upgrade roadmap


PUB_F-22_Modernization_Changes_2005-2011_GAO_lg.gif


Things like that:

[/font]
The USAF also cut full SDB-I integration, which offered the ability to release all of the plane’s bombs at once against 8 separate targets. That can be very useful in some tactical situations, allowing just one screaming pass over defended and dispersed targets: airfields, air defense complexes, etc.

Does not seam the F-22 is the top priority any more...

all one can say is, WOW..(thank you for sharing) hope our new Sec Def pays attention to details like this as the two engine may well need renewed focus...verses phaty sady
 
Good news for the F-22

The US Air Force has awarded Lockheed Martin an indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract with a ceiling of $6.9 billion to upgrade the service’s fleet of F-22 Raptor stealth fighters.

The ful Report from The Aviationist is here:
http://theaviationist.com/2013/02/27/f-22-upgrade/

Even better news is at the end.
The USAF is funding a subsequent Increment 3.3 upgrade as a separate procurement programme.

Looks like the F-22 will be kept at the top of the game despite its few numbers :)
 
Hard to tell from that article but I know there has been a want to upgrade the F-22 with F-35 technology.
 
GTX said:
Hard to tell from that article but I know there has been a want to upgrade the F-22 with F-35 technology.

The 6.9B funds FREDI, which covers Increment 3.2B software development, systems integration, and testing. This should include AIM-9X, AIM-120D, ESMS (written in C++), 2-way datalink, IFDL datalink, and some of the emitter geolocation capability. SDB-I is not part of this program, nor are any F-35 features.
 
F-22 Raptor production has been shut down for now, and admittedly, the production line re-opening seems unlikely. But with all the problems surrounding the F-35 and a sixth-generation fighter at least 15-20 years from production, it seems feasible that the U.S. Air Force might decide at some point in the near future that buying a few new F-22s is a worthwhile investment.

But presumably, if they'd do so, they wouldn't spend $250-500M reopening the line just to build the same fighter—they'd want an upgraded version. So what upgrades/new versions would you suspect are feasible? Could we expect an F-22B two-seater in 10 years? An F-22C with advanced stealth in 15? An F-22E with a laser cannon in lieu of the 20mm Vulcan in 20? I'm interested to know what all you geniuses think.
 
IRST would be an obvious upgrade to help with confrontations with other g5 stealth fighters, and probably also the biggest bang for the buck.


Cheek radars would be lower priority so long as the US would likely retain a preponderance in both surveillance assets and networking in likely battlefield. But if it become necessary to keep assets like AWACS from battlefields due to presence of such adversaries as j-20, it might be advantageous to fit the cheek radars that f-22 was designed for.


HMS would probably be a low priority because with only 187 f-22s, it should be the American strategy to make the maximum use of the f-22 stealth and speed, and avoid at all cost dog fighting with f-22.


My own feeling is f-35 really won't cut it against j-20 and t-50, and there will be a 10 year period between 2020 and 2030 when the US would wish it had a larger force of f-22s.
 
Okay, forgive my ignorance, but what does HMS mean in this context?
 
Maybe a new view on the FB-22? Or a F-22B and F-22C, the B the two person and the F-22C the one person variants, with enhanced weapon bays and with strengthened wings to carry a total of two stealth weapon/fuelpods, which have the size of the f-18 international ones or other stealth wingpods. Maybe the EOTS of the F-35 can be installed as well. Just brainstorming.
 
malipa said:
Maybe a new view on the FB-22? Or a F-22B and F-22C, the B the two person and the F-22C the one person variants, with enhanced weapon bays and with strengthened wings to carry a total of two stealth weapon/fuelpods, which have the size of the f-18 international ones or other stealth wingpods. Maybe the EOTS of the F-35 can be installed as well. Just brainstorming.

I think restarting F-22 production in any form is a long shot.
 
A 25'' stretch in front of the wing to lengthen the bays with minor changes in inlet skins to slightly deepen the longer bay. allowing 120D in the side bay as well as a 2k weapon on each inboard side of lower bays with option of four 1k weapons or up to six more 120Ds in the main. A DSI inlet and modern skin tech for improved signature. The increased fuel in the lengthened fus would increase range and DAS and EOTS would improve SA and targeting capability. Finally a HMS to improve WVR when using side door mounted 9X.
 
Cheek-AESA, IRST, HMS, 25'' stretch (might also be good for fuel-capacity)... all good ideas. One might also add full-on transplants of F-35 avionics and skin technology as well.

An impossible dream to say the least.

However, consider what the USAF might be needing in 20 years or so. Does anyone remember how the USN beat the system to get what was essentially a new fighter on the cheap in the 1990s? A Super-Raptor, as it were, would be a rather convenient way to avoid the bureaucratic/fiscal nightmares of an all-new platform, even if entails what is really a completely different airplane. As long as it looks pretty-much the same, the USAF will be able to say that it's only buying updated hardware and not a brand-new thingabobber (avoiding the cost/time of design competitions and fly-offs); the politicians/media will be too stupid to tell the difference and won't pay much attention (which often seems to make the difference in how well programs do)
 
By that rationale though, one could make the argument that a X-44 like tailless upgraded F-22 would be a suitable alternative to a new build NGAD/FA-XX. Ghosts of the naval swing wing F-22?
 
New production air superiority f-22 with fully updated avionics has to come at some expense of the funding and schedule of f-22's successor. Given this trade off, whether it should be done really depends on detailed geopolitical forecast. If we think there is strong possibility of sharp armed conflict with Russia or china or their direct proxies between 2020-2030, it might be a good idea. Otherwise no.
 
LM manufactured 195 F-22As and USAF/ACC has approximately 185 of these in service. Some of these will crash, and God forbid, some of these will be lost in combat. Nevertheless, I don't foresee any major changes being made to the existing fleet of Raptors in anyway, shape or form. The sad truth is "when they're gone, they're gone." -SP
 
"Raptor 4007 starts testing Inc 3.2A upgrade on its 1000th sortie"
By
Dave Majumdar
on May 7, 2013 8:55 PM

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2013/05/raptor-4007-starts-testing-inc.html

Last month on 19 April, the US Air Force's F-22 Combined Test Force (CTF) completed the 1,000th sortie on tail number 4007 at Edwards AFB, California. The aircraft is currently testing the Increment 3.2A software upgrade package which will add new electronic protection measures and new combat identification capabilities to the Raptor fleet.

130424-F-ZZ999-010-1200.jpg"This sortie was one of the first flight tests of Increment 3.2A, the next major software upgrade to the aircraft which will enhance its lethality and self-defense capability," Lt Col Devin Traynor, F-22 CTF director of operations.

Though the USAF says that 4007 is the oldest Raptor out there flying--it's been flying since the engineering manufacturing development (EMD) phase of the program, there is an older Raptor that's still on flyable status--4006. Other old EMD jets, 4004 and 4005 are being used as maintenance trainers at Tyndall AFB, Fla., and Langley AFB, Va., respectively.

There has been some debate as to what to do with Ship 6--as an old one of a kind EMD jet, it's expensive to maintain. While it's on flyable status, there have been discussions about retiring it, and as of right now, there are no plans to fly it again. That being said, it's not heading to a museum anytime soon.

The USAF has only a tiny fraction of the Raptor fleet it once envisioned, so there has been some talk about bringing 4006 up to the Block 10 standard. It would be expensive, but it would cost far less than a new airframe--not that a new airframe is a realistic option since the F-22 production line ended last year.

The money could be drawn from the funds allocated to modernize tail 4013, which crashed late last year, and therefore will never use the cash allocated to bring it up to the Block 20 standard. "The sequester has put a damper on things for now," a source says.
Cat
 

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Just a small note which hasn't gotten much publicity: Apparently the work to add the Scorpion HMCS to the Raptor has been abandoned
 
Steve Pace said:
LM manufactured 195 F-22As and USAF/ACC has approximately 185 of these in service. Some of these will crash, and God forbid, some of these will be lost in combat. Nevertheless, I don't foresee any major changes being made to the existing fleet of Raptors in anyway, shape or form. The sad truth is "when they're gone, they're gone." -SP

Lockheed Martin has already been awarded a contract to do upgrades on the F-22's systems----- see the February 2013 article at Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lockheed-awarded-69-billion-f-22-upgrade-contract-382576/).

With the Next Generation Air Dominance program in the early stages of development, it may be several years before the cost of maintaining and upgrading the F-22 fleet is no longer sustainable.
 
Interesting announcement coming out of the Paris Air Show

Vision Systems, who makes JHMCS, had a couple of product announcements. One was Digital JHMCS, basically a significantly improved drop-in replacement for existing a/c that already are equipped with JHMCS.

The other one was JHMCS II. Basically the same helmet with a couple more features, but they emphasized tow key points: One, according to them, it will work with any aircraft. Second, and it was significant they called attention to this, it does not require any cockpit mapping. That's always been the problem with getting a HMD/HMCS into the F-22. I wonder if the decision to drop the Scorpion effort earlier this year was due totally to budget, or if they had been tipped off on a Non Disclosure basis that this was coming?

Of course, USAF has to abandon their, "We're so awesome we don't need it" position.


www.jhmcsii.com
 
I was reading a bit of Lockheed-GD-Boeing ATF history on CodeOne, and this was one question that came to my mind. From what I gather, Configuraiton 638 from late 1990 was the shape in the EMD proposal that won the ATF contract. The then current configuration (the article was written in 1998) is 645, and they said it changed very little from 638. I'm somewhat curious about what exactly has changed from the EMD proposal configuration 638 to 645 from 1998. I recall people saying that sometime after dem/eval, USAF relaxed range requirements so the aircraft can be optimized for speed and maneuverability. Also, is the F-22 we have in service right now the same shape as 645, or has that been altered slightly after testing.

Also, was it only the Lockheed-led team that had trouble with the 50,000 lb gross weight requirement, or did Northrop also have difficulty there?
 
some pics ;D
 

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more ;D
 

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more ;D
 

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more ;D
 

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Good stuff. The first picture was especially noteworth for me. You don't often get to see the curvature of the inlet ducts, buried as they are inside the vehicles.
 
Hi folks,
I just found this about the Advanced IRST (AIRST or Airstar) at f-16.net.
The USAF has not yet been convinced of the usefulness of IRST, although I have tested the AAS-42 on an F-15 in the late 80's. GE and Martin Marietta Aerospace, which are now part of Lockheed Martin (LMEM) developed an IRST to the ATF program, which became the F-22A Raptor.

The IRST was canceled during the demonstration / evaluation (dem / val). The USAF believes the AN/APG-77 radar capable LPI will be able to meet all your requirements. The space, weight, power and cooling system for the IRST is still in the aircraft.

Still, LMEM won a contract to develop technology for an IRST (AirStar) with potential application in the F-22.

The LMEM tested a Advanced IRST (AirStar) for the F-22. The sensor unit (left) is protected by a window with stealth characteristics (right).
 

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Regarding AIRST, is it supposed to be mounted at the wing root or under the nose? I remember reading the LEF was moved in because of no more IRST.
 
Perhaps it doesn't qualify as a "feature" but it seems like the F-22's internal fuel capacity fell significantly from the YF-22 to the production F-22A. I've read numbers as high as 25,000 lbs for the YF-22 while the numbers I've seen for the F-22A range from 18,450 to 20,650 lbs. Is such a reduction normal in the transition from prototype to production aircraft in order to fit all of the avionics?
 
USAF relaxed the range/fuel requirements. It was tradeoff for something else, can't remember what exactly. Speed or maneuverability?
 
flanker said:
USAF relaxed the range/fuel requirements. It was tradeoff for something else, can't remember what exactly. Speed or maneuverability?

I would guess a little of both. Compare the back end of the YF-22 to the F-22A. The rear of the F-22A is much slimmer.
 

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