Letters of marque in the 21st century?

[Owens Z]

Senator Mike Lee of landlocked Utah recently made a semi-serious proposal for the US Government to issue letters of marque to privateers willing to hunt down and seize drug-smuggling ships and narco submarines on the high seas; see for example < https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...exican-drug-cartels/articleshow/117646676.cms >. Such letters of marque, widespread in previous times, were outlawed among the signatories of the 1856 Paris Declaration Respecting Maritime Law, but the United States has never been a party to that treaty, and the US Constitution's Article I Section 8 Clause 11 that Congress may "grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water" remains in effect, although not actually used since our Civil War.

Maritime drug smuggling is indeed a serious criminal enterprise and severe problem, for the USA and other countries. But even granting that Senator Lee's post on X is a real proposal and not an attention-seeking jest, and granting that willing privateers with suitable ships could be found, there are still many practical matters that would need to be resolved beforehand, not least that the signatories of the 1856 Paris Declaration had agreed to treat privateers as pirates, with the standard penalty.

 

[Dilandu]

It would open far too big can of worms to seriously consider. Including the fact, that US government would still be responsible for any mistakes and blunders that privateers could made.

 

[GTX]

So what happens when these privateers capture a ship of drugs...and then decide to sell them themselves? Because we know that would never happen...

 

[Aubi]

For every other country this would simply be a piracy... No matter who the target is.

 

[DWG]

Senator Mike Lee of landlocked Utah recently made a semi-serious proposal for the US Government to issue letters of marque to privateers willing to hunt down and seize drug-smuggling ships and narco submarines on the high seas; see for example < https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...exican-drug-cartels/articleshow/117646676.cms >.

It fits in with a bunch of other stuff from the MAGA crowd that attempts to bypass due process by incentivizing civilians to take the law into their own hands. There's been stuff around abortion rights and I saw a report a couple of days ago that Mississippi is reportedly considering licensing bounty hunters to seize illegal immigrants - so if you're non-white and not carrying your papers....

It's only a matter of time before this kind of thing ends in a shoot-out and innocent people hurt.

Even putting armed security aboard ships in the Indian Ocean has resulted in India arresting at least one group.

 

[sferrin]

So what happens when these privateers capture a ship of drugs...and then decide to sell them themselves? Because we know that would never happen...

Probably the same thing as if the original owners had sold them. Of course, in the real world, they'd probably be in touch with the Coast Guard, for deconfliction if nothing else, so yeah fever dreams.

 

[sferrin]

Senator Mike Lee of landlocked Utah recently made a semi-serious proposal for the US Government to issue letters of marque to privateers willing to hunt down and seize drug-smuggling ships and narco submarines on the high seas; see for example < https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...exican-drug-cartels/articleshow/117646676.cms >. Such letters of marque, widespread in previous times, were outlawed among the signatories of the 1856 Paris Declaration Respecting Maritime Law, but the United States has never been a party to that treaty, and the US Constitution's Article I Section 8 Clause 11 that Congress may "grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water" remains in effect, although not actually used since our Civil War.

Maritime drug smuggling is indeed a serious criminal enterprise and severe problem, for the USA and other countries. But even granting that Senator Lee's post on X is a real proposal and not an attention-seeking jest, and granting that willing privateers with suitable ships could be found, there are still many practical matters that would need to be resolved beforehand, not least that the signatories of the 1856 Paris Declaration had agreed to treat privateers as pirates, with the standard penalty.

"land-locked" Utah. Relevance, please.

 

[sferrin]

It fits in with a bunch of other stuff from the MAGA crowd that attempts to bypass due process by incentivizing civilians to take the law into their own hands. There's been stuff around abortion rights and I saw a report a couple of days ago that Mississippi is reportedly considering licensing bounty hunters to seize illegal immigrants - so if you're non-white and not carrying your papers....

It's only a matter of time before this kind of thing ends in a shoot-out and innocent people hurt.

Even putting armed security aboard ships in the Indian Ocean has resulted in India arresting at least one group.

Having the official sanction of the government is not the same as "piracy". I know, complicated right? "Letters of mark" is not the same thing as Joe Blow driving his pickup truck down to the border and shooting people off the wall on his own. More like being deputized. God help you if you DIDN'T have a Letter of Mark.

Can we avoid TDS and histrionics here please? I hope that's not too much to ask.

 

[Aubi]

When the rest of the world does not acknowledge the legality of said letters, it IS a piracy.

 

[Michel Van]

semi-serious proposal for the US Government to issue letters of marque to privateers willing to hunt down and seize drug-smuggling ships and narco submarines on the high seas

Jack Sparrow would be soo happy...

...Seriously this open allot of Problems:

Special if privateers get wrong boat or worst go rogue !
also how other nations will react ?
will others follow the US and allow privateers, Nations like Iran, Yemen ?
What if one of privateers attack nuclear submarine ?

Chaos ensure !

 

[Owens Z]

"land-locked" Utah. Relevance, please.

No offense intended, Sferrin. (My original post was in the "Secret Naval Projects" forum, before a moderator moved it.)

 

[Arjen]

Hugo de Groot is spinning in his grave.

 

[Owens Z]

Hugo de Groot is spinning in his grave.

De Groot, aka Hugo Grotius, the father of international law, spinning? He was against piracy in his day (1583-1645), like everyone else except the pirates, but I haven't heard that Grotius had a moral or legal objection to privateering and letters of marque, which were common and remained so for another two centuries.

I admit, I too thought of Captain Jack Sparrow when I heard about the Senator's recent post. Even if it was meant as a joke, there are serious issues involved. I had learned years ago that there was public discussion in both the United States and Spain (another non-signatory to the 1856 Paris Declaration) about issuing new letters of marque against the other during the 1898 Spanish-American War, which saw considerable naval fighting. But nothing came of those discussions.

The 1856 Paris Declaration has a large number of signatories, but to state that's "the rest of the world" is an exaggeration, I think.

 

[TomS]

Probably the same thing as if the original owners had sold them. Of course, in the real world, they'd probably be in touch with the Coast Guard, for deconfliction if nothing else, so yeah fever dreams.

We know that some border militia groups that were supposedly "coordinating" with Border Patrol to interdict migrants also moonlighted as "rip gangs" stealing drugs from smugglers and selling them themselves.

Arizona militia members accused of stealing cocaine from smugglers

FBI sting involved alleged plot to steal drugs from cartel smugglers and a high-speed chase through the streets of Phoenix

www.cbsnews.com

The odds of that sort of malfeasance happening among modern privateers seems pretty high, unless the oversight is so strict that the "privateers" are in fact armed naval reserves.

And historically, privateers with letters of marque tended to turn pirate as soon as "legitimate" targets became scarce. What happens when a modern privateer decides that a Chinese fishing fleet mother ship looks like a Colombian drug smuggling mother ship instead? Or at least that they can tell that story. Who is on the hook for the act of piracy that ensues?

 

[sferrin]

We know that some border militia groups that were supposedly "coordinating" with Border Patrol to interdict migrants also moonlighted as "rip gangs" stealing drugs from smugglers and selling them themselves.

Arizona militia members accused of stealing cocaine from smugglers

FBI sting involved alleged plot to steal drugs from cartel smugglers and a high-speed chase through the streets of Phoenix

www.cbsnews.com

The odds of that sort of malfeasance happening among modern privateers seems pretty high, unless the oversight is so strict that the "privateers" are in fact armed naval reserves.

And historically, privateers with letters of marque tended to turn pirate as soon as "legitimate" targets became scarce. What happens when a modern privateer decides that a Chinese fishing fleet mother ship looks like a Colombian drug smuggling mother ship instead? Or at least that they can tell that story. Who is on the hook for the act of piracy that ensues?

Shouldn't be that difficult to some add a few general outlines to any documentation. "With great power comes great responsibility. So if you're caught selling drugs you acquired from the cartel we'll execute you and your crew." If they acquire cartel firearms and vehicles, then sell them, who cares? As for Chinese fishing vessels, if they're where they shouldn't be, that's on them. But we're quibbling over details that could be addressed.

 

[sferrin]

No offense intended, Sferrin. (My original post was in the "Secret Naval Projects" forum, before a moderator moved it.)

I don't think the concept is limited to the oceans though, I'll admit, how would you explain 50,000 US fighting men running wild in Mexico while trying to say you're not at war with them?

 

[Orionblamblam]

I'll admit, how would you explain 50,000 US fighting men running wild in Mexico while trying to say you're not at war with them?

How does Mexico explain millions of Mexican fighting men running around the US?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

This smells like discussion of politics. No inclined to allow it.