L.E.Baynes

[Jan den Das]

Looking on the internet there is information concerning the aeroplanes designs or involved by Baynes.
There is very little infirmation about projects.
After the war he was involved in sweep-wing projects.
Harold Penrose writes in a letter in Flight that he has seen a model Westland model of a sweep-wing fighter at Westland and designed by Baynes. Who knows something.
Based on the Baynes Bee was a new design with more engine power and better landing gear, the design would have been gone to Prestwick. Who knows more.
Baynes very interresting, look it up!!!
Jan

 

[Schneiderman]

A good place to start would be with a search of patents. Go to espacenet.com and search for Leslie Baynes
However I don't think he devised anything particularly interesting in the way of projects

Also here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24087.msg245552.html#msg245552

 

[NilsD]

Same Baynes as Baynes Heliplane?

 

[Schneiderman]

Yes, same man

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3624.msg59962.html

 

[hesham]

After the war he was involved in sweep-wing projects.
Harold Penrose writes in a letter in Flight that he has seen a model Westland model of a sweep-wing fighter at Westland and designed by Baynes. Who knows something.

Jan

What was this ?.

 

[avion ancien]

Here are a few of Leslie Baynes' designs, projects and so forth;

- Scud I, II and III gliders (sailplane and motorglider)
- Abbott- Baynes cantilever Pou de Ciel redesign
- 'swing wing' aeroplane patents
- Baynes Bee
- Baynes B3 (an enlarged version of the Bee)
- Baynes B4 (transport aircraft project)
- Hoverplane 'anchored' trainer
- replica aircraft constructed for Korda's 'Conquest of the Air' film (1935)
- Muntz Pescara jet engine
- VTOL swivel turbine aircraft patent
- 1949 supersonic aircraft design with variable geometry swept wing
- Youngman-Baynes High Lift Monoplane

and you might also want to research E.D.Abbott & Co. Ltd., Abbott-Baynes Sailplanes Ltd., Abbott-Baynes Aircraft Ltd., Hoverplane Co. Ltd., Carden-Baynes Aircraft Ltd., Sidarblen Engines Ltd., Surrey Flying Services Ltd., Brant Aircraft Ltd. and Alan Muntz & Co. Ltd., with all of which Leslie Baynes was involved.

 

[hesham]

Helpful,thank you my dear Avion.

 

[Jan den Das]

Hai Avion
A very interresting list.
Are there more details etc. concerning these projects?

Jan

 

[avion ancien]

My source was Arthur Ord-Hume's 'British Light Aeroplanes 1920-1940'. That expands significantly on a number of the subjects I've identified. Although the book is written in a rather idiosyncratic manner, still I recommend it highly as it contains much information that is not to be found elsewhere.

 

[Schneiderman]

After the war he was involved in sweep-wing projects.
Harold Penrose writes in a letter in Flight that he has seen a model Westland model of a sweep-wing fighter at Westland and designed by Baynes. Who knows something.

Jan

What was this ?.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1965/1965%20-%201828.html?search=penrose

Patents GB664058 and GB713525

 

[hesham]

Thank you Schneiderman,

and please can you give me a direct link,I search on this site but no way;

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?ST=singleline&locale=fr_EP&submitted=true&DB=&query=baynes+avion

I know GB664058 from here;
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,468.msg240261.html#msg240261

 

[Schneiderman]

Search using the patent number.

In general when searching for British patents it is not a good idea to search using the French word Avion. Also if you search using a name it is better to search using both forename and surname, so Leslie and Baynes

 

[Jjr]

Hesham try google, L.E. Baynes patent and there they are.

Jjr

 

[hesham]

Hesham try google, L.E. Baynes patent and there they are.

Jjr

Thank you Jjr,and welcome aboard,

I found it;

https://www.google.com.eg/?tbm=pts&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=qLpfWPLIM4eQgAbC54u4Cg#tbm=pts&q=L.E.+Baynes+airplane

 

[Schneiderman]

Hesham try google, L.E. Baynes patent and there they are.

Jjr

But remember that Google tends to find US patents and misses many European ones

 

[Jan den Das]

Yes I know

Jan

 

[ursrius]

I have a brief outline of Baynes on my website at http://www.britishaviation-ptp.com/b/baynes.html, although I was unaware of the Sidarblen. I will update to include this. You will find some more reference sources there.

 

[hesham]

Here are a few of Leslie Baynes' designs, projects and so forth;

- Scud I, II and III gliders (sailplane and motorglider)
- Abbott- Baynes cantilever Pou de Ciel redesign
- 'swing wing' aeroplane patents
- Baynes Bee
- Baynes B3 (an enlarged version of the Bee)
- Baynes B4 (transport aircraft project)
- Hoverplane 'anchored' trainer
- replica aircraft constructed for Korda's 'Conquest of the Air' film (1935)
- Muntz Pescara jet engine
- VTOL swivel turbine aircraft patent
- 1949 supersonic aircraft design with variable geometry swept wing
- Youngman-Baynes High Lift Monoplane

and you might also want to research E.D.Abbott & Co. Ltd., Abbott-Baynes Sailplanes Ltd., Abbott-Baynes Aircraft Ltd., Hoverplane Co. Ltd., Carden-Baynes Aircraft Ltd., Sidarblen Engines Ltd., Surrey Flying Services Ltd., Brant Aircraft Ltd. and Alan Muntz & Co. Ltd., with all of which Leslie Baynes was involved.

with some addition and explanation;

Monoplane was a two-seat single engined high-wing monoplane Project of 1924
B4 was a three-seat twin engined monoplane Project of 1937.
Travers Trainer was a two-seat high wing single engined monoplane Project of 1933
Flying Boat was a six-engines 130 ton flying boat Project of 1939
Fighter was a turbine powered fighter Project of 1939.

 

[Schneiderman]

Fighter was a turbine powered fighter Project of 1939.

Turbine power in 1939? That's amazing, tell us more

 

[avion ancien]

The assertion seems to be based on what appears in http://www.britishaviation-ptp.com/b/baynes.html.

Edit: oops, sorry, I see that this is ursrius' website and mentioned by him above.

 

[hesham]

It's the site which you told me about it,the source; Aeroplane Monthly, Jan 1995

 

[Schneiderman]

Thanks, that needs some serious verification.

edit....found it. Patent GB526104

 

[hesham]

Wow,great find my dear Schneiderman.

 

[Schneiderman]

Reading the patent it is hard to see what advantage Baynes saw in using this complex gas generator and turbines system. Any efficiency gains from utilising a Pescara-type engine as a gas generator would be more than lost through the friction and turbulence in the lengthy piping and the need for multiple turbines.
I guess a flying boat of this size would normally require six engines of about 1000hp, so the gas generator would need to output the equivilent of more than 6000hp, which would be very demanding

 

[hesham]

Reading the patent it is hard to see what advantage Baynes saw in using this complex gas generator and turbines system. Any efficiency gains from utilising a Pescara-type engine as a gas generator would be more than lost through the friction and turbulence in the lengthy piping and the need for multiple turbines.
I guess a flying boat of this size would normally require six engines of about 1000hp, so the gas generator would need to output the equivilent of more than 6000hp, which would be very demanding

Maybe it needs eight or ten engines ?.

 

[hesham]

B4 was a three-seat twin engined monoplane Project of 1937.

I searched in Flight 22 October 1936 about this Project,but I found nothing ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

I think the problem here relates to what can be termed a project. I know my view differs from many of you here but unless a design has been developed to the point where it can be marketed, and where a market is clearly available, I do not see this as a project. They are, at best, just ideas or concepts. When we have difficulty in locating information on a project in the aviation press and similar sources it is more than likely because it had not reached the point where they are 'true' projects. I would suspect that this is the case for Baynes' B4 and others.
Baynes was very active submitting patent applications for various aircraft-related ideas but they don't give much of a clue as to what some of his projects may have been.

 

[ursrius]

For my site (British Aviation - Projects to Production) I use the broadest possible definition of project - "Anything that has received serious design study is considered worthy of inclusion." I want to be as all inclusive as possible to capture as much of the work that has gone on in British design offices large and small.

 

[ursrius]

I searched in Flight 22 October 1936 about this Project,but I found nothing ?.

Sorry, my typo - reference should have been '12,29' (i.e., Aeroplane Monthly, Jun 1992 and Flight Magazine, 25 Nov 1937) not '7,27'. Will update.

 

[Schneiderman]

Yes, it boils down to what you consider a 'serious design study'. I know my personal definition is tighter than most but I do look for a significant amount of detail, something more than a general arrangement drawing and sketches. My personal hang up is the plethora of 'project' flying wing, multiple hull flying boats with 10+ engines, squash courts, hangars and promenade decks ;D

 

[hesham]

For my site (British Aviation - Projects to Production) I use the broadest possible definition of project - "Anything that has received serious design study is considered worthy of inclusion." I want to be as all inclusive as possible to capture as much of the work that has gone on in British design offices large and small.

A very great site,

and I agree totally with your point,but I hope you can complete all the companies in
very near time.

 

[hesham]

From Russian book,

I don't know if they are the same or not ?.

 

[riggerrob]

From Russian book,

I don't know if they are the same or not ?.

Clever way to access the rear fuselage. What sort of cargo?

Is this the same Lesley Everett Baynes (1902 - 1989) who designed the Slingsby-Baynes Bat experimental, single-seat, flying-wing glider. The Bat served as a sub-scale proof-of-concept for a proposed tank-delivery assault glider. Sadly, by mid-war the minimum sized tank was the 40 ton German Panther and nobody had a tow-plane strong enough.

 

[robunos]

Clever way to access the rear fuselage. What sort of cargo?

Is this the same Lesley Everett Baynes (1902 - 1989) who designed the Slingsby-Baynes Bat experimental, single-seat, flying-wing glider. The Bat served as a sub-scale proof-of-concept for a proposed tank-delivery assault glider. Sadly, by mid-war the minimum sized tank was the 40 ton German Panther and nobody had a tow-plane strong enough.

To answer your second point first, yes it is . . .
The folding fuselage decking is not meant for loading cargo, rather it is to reduce the depth of the fuselage, which allows the wing to pivot over it, which in turn reduces the space the aeroplane takes up in the hangar.
Since, at this time in the UK, a lot (most?) of aerodromes charged for hangarage based on the floor area taken up by the aeroplane, any means of reducing said area was explored and employed, cf. the folding wings on on biplanes such as Moths, etc.

cheers,
Robin.