Koninklijke Marine general - The better KM's Ships, Plans and Weaponry discussions

[Sanglune]

I figured we could do with a general thread for certain matters pertaining the Royal Dutch Navy instead of having multiple smaller threads enter the void of obscurity.


Useful links:

Netherlandsnavy - has reprints of the Washington International articles about the Battlecruiser 1939 - 1940 and Battleships 1914
https://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/

Delpher - notable entries are the periodicals "Marineblad" and "Jaarboek van de Koninklijke Marine"
https://www.delpher.nl/

Nationaal Insituut voor Militaire Historie
pictures and movies: https://beeldbank.nimh.nl/
archives: https://www.archieven.nl/mi/2231/

National Archives
https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/

The big blueprint library - 4.MST (National Archives)
https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/onderzoeken/archief/4.MST

Schelde Navy Blueprints
7532 Tekeningen Marinescheepsbouw Kon. Mij. De Schelde (KMS), 1876-1970

My own blog with the occasional Dutch stuff
https://warshipsunarchived.blogspot.com/

Threads of interest:
Nevesbu's projects
Early Post-WWII Dutch Submarines: Unbuilt 3 and 4 pressure hull designs
Preliminary design for Netherlands Cruiser DeRuyter with 8" guns
Dutch Post-WW2 Battleship
Eendracht-class cruiser (as designed pre-war)
Lists of Unbuilt Royal Navy and British Export Ships
Fokker Alpha-Numeric Aircraft Designations

 

[Sanglune]

I'm working on two books. One pertaining Ship designs, which is currently in the stages of completion.

The other is related to the weaponry of all ships within the same period. It is a bit neglected recently, but it can be found here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U-EIaMWQs2UpJtDRB6HqhbesJRClppQo/

Brief list of most breachloaders of the KM ca. 1900 - 1950

28 cm A №1 - 280 mm ca. L19
28 cm A №2 - "L30" actually L27
28 cm (№3) - 280 mm L42½
24 cm №1 - 240 mm L40
24 cm №2 - 240 mm L40
21 cm A №1 - 209,3 mm L35
21 cm A №2 - 209,3 mm L35
19 cm - coastal guns for West Indies, from HMS Effingham
18 cm - USN 7" guns, 19 shipped to the DEI. Without powder
17 cm A №1 - 172,6 mm ca. L25
17 cm A №2 - 172,6 mm L35

15 cm A №1 - 149,1 mm L25
15 cm A №2 - 149,1 mm L35
15 cm №1 - 149,1 mm L35
15 cm №2 - 149,1 mm L40 in sliding mount (L40 №1 in army use)
15 cm №3 - 149,1 mm L40 in cradle mount (L40 №2 in army use)
15 cm №4 - 149,1 mm L40 (L40 №3 in army use)
15 cm №5 - 149,1 mm L40
15 cm №5 O.S. - open schild - open shield
15 cm №6 - 149,1 mm 8 models Krupp-Bofors, 12 models Bofors. №6 and further were all L50 tube length and around L53 total
15 cm №7 - 149,1 mm Bofors for Flores and Soemba
15 cm №8 - 149,1 mm HIH
15 cm №9 - 149,1 mm WFB Twin turret De Ruyter, 60°
15 cm №10 - 149,1 mm WFB Single mount De Ruyter, 60°
15 cm №11 - 149,1 mm WFB Twin mount Tromp, 30°
15 cm №12 - possibly pre-war Eendracht mount, 60° automatic fixed rounds
15 cm №12 - RMB 15 cm SK C/28 in Dreh.L. C/34
15 cm №13 - RMB 15 cm TBTS.K C/36 in 15 cm TBTS.L. C/36 mit handbetrieb
15 cm №14 - RMB 15 cm SK C/28 in 15 cm KST.MPL. C/36
15 cm №15 - WFB 152,4 mm De Zeven Provinciën, 60°
6" Mark VI Mod. 8 - Coastal guns

12 cm K A №1 - 120 mm Krupp L17½
12 cm K A №2 - 120 mm Krupp L17½
12 cm L A - 120 mm Krupp L35
12 cm №1 - 120 mm Krupp L40 in sliding mount
12 cm №2 - 120 mm Krupp L40 in cradle mount
12 cm №3 - 120 mm Krupp L40
12 cm №4 - 120 mm Bofors L50 (L53½ total), 30°
12 cm №5 - 120 mm HIH L50 (L52½ total), 35°
12 cm №6 - 120 mm WFB L46 (simplified to L45), 55°
12 cm №6 L.S. - licht schild - light shield, for Destroyers
12 cm №7 - 120 mm Bofors L46, 45°
12 cm №8 - 120 mm WFB L46 twin, 45°
12 cm №9 - 120 mm L46 twin triaxial automatic mount, 80°
12 cm №10 - 120 mm L50 twin automatic mount, 85°

11,9 cm S.Aut. №1 - 4.7" QF Mk 12*/12B on CP twin Mk 19 mtg
11,9 cm №2 - 4.7" QF Mk 3** on CP Mk 22 mtg
11,9 cm №3 - 4.7" QF Mk 9** on CP Mk 18 mtg
11,9 cm S.Aut. №4 - 4.7" QF Mk 9 on CP Mk 17 mtg

4,5 inch Mk. 6 Mod. 3

10,5 cm A - Krupp L35
10,5 cm (S.Aut.) №1 - Krupp L50 (L53 total), 20°
10,5 cm S.Aut. №2 - Bofors AA gun for airfields
10,5 cm №2 - BV.Hann. 10,5 cm SK C/32 U in 10,5 cm UBTS.L.C/36
10,5 cm №3 - BV.Hann. 10,5 cm SK C/32 in 10,5 cm MPL.C/32
10,5 cm №4 - BV.Hann. 10,5 cm SK C/32 in 8,8 cm MPL.C/30
10,5 cm S.Aut. №5 - BV.Hann. 10,5 cm SK NL C/32 in 8,8 cm MPL.C/30 (note, does not seem to be the nL but something else?)
10,5 cm S.Aut. №6 - 4" QF Mk 19 mtg with 10,5 cm SK NL C/32 barrels

10,2 cm №1 - Watervliet Arsenal 4" Mk 9 Mod 5 on Mk 12 Mod 1 mtg
10,2 cm №2 - 4" QF Mk 16* on HA/RP twin Mk 19 mtg
10,2 cm №3 - 4" QF Mk 12 on S.I. mtg
10,2 cm №4 - 4" QF Mk 22 on S.I. mtg
10,2 cm №5 - 4" QF Mk 19 on HA/LA CP Mk 23 mtg

8,8 cm №1 - L45 tube length, for submarines
8,8 cm №2 - Bofors L45, for submarines
8,8 cm №3 - HIH and later WFB L45, for submarine
8,8 cm №4 - RMB SK C/33 in 8,8 cm UBTS.L.C/35
8,8 cm №5 - i forgor

7,6 cm S.Aut. №1 - 3"/50 cal Mk 21 and Mk 22 on Mk 22 mtg
7,6 cm S.Aut. №2 - 3"/50 cal Mk 21 and Mk 22 on Mk 22 mtg (eye shooting)
7,6 cm S.Aut. №3 - 3"/50 cal Mk 20 on Mk 20 mtg
7,6 cm №4 - 3"/50 cal Mk 2 Mod 3 on Mk 4 Mod 8 mtg
7,6 cm №5 - 3"/50 cal Mk 3 Mod 2 on Mk 4 Mod 27 mtg
7,6 cm №6 - 3"/23 cal Mk 13 on Mk 13 Mod 0 mtg
7,6 cm №7 - 3"/23 cal Mk 14 on Mk 14 Mod 0 mtg

7,5 cm A - Rijkswerf Steelhard Bronze cannon
7,5 cm №1 - Krupp L40 sliding mount, 20°, (7L40 №1 in army use)
7,5 cm №2 - Krupp L40 cradle mount, 20°
7,5 cm №3 - L40 cradle mount, 20° (7L40 №2 in army use)
7,5 cm №4 - Skoda L30
7,5 cm №5 - L18, for submarines
7,5 cm №6 - Bofors L55, 95°
7,5 cm №7 - Bofors L55
7,5 cm №8 - HIH L55
7,5 cm №9 - L55
7,5 cm S.Aut. №1 - Krupp L55
7,5 cm S.Aut. №2 - L55
7,5 cm S.Aut. №3 - L55
7,5 cm S.Aut. №4 - Bofors L55
7,5 cm S.Aut. №5 - Bofors L55

AA, pre war:

40 mm №1 - single 2 pdr
40 mm №2 - single 2 pdr for submarines
40 mm №3 - twin Hazemeijer for RPC, stabilised remotely or manually
40 mm №4 - twin Hazemeijer with on mount FC
40 mm №5 - wet mount for submarines, presummably low power version
40 mm №6 - unknown but shared ammo with №3 and 4.

AA, post war:

57 mm №1 in №1 mount

40 mm №2 - 2 pdr QF Mk VIII CHV
40 mm №3 - QF Mk 4 or prewar №3, №4
40 mm №4 - QF Mk N.1-1* and FlaK C/28
40 mm №5 - automatic M1
40 mm №6 - new L70

40 mm №3 quad mount for №2 - 2 pdr mtg Mk 7
40 mm №4 quad mount for №2 - 2 pdr mtg Mk 7*P
40 mm №5 mount for №2 - 2 pdr mtg Mk 8
40 mm №6 twin mount for №3 - Bofors mtg Mk 4
40 mm №7 twin mount for №3 - Bofors mtg Mk 4*
40 mm №8 mount for №4 - Lafette for 2 cm FlaK 28
40 mm №9 mount for №4 - converted Oerlikon Mk 5 Band M (Boffin)
40 mm №10 mount for №5 - Bofors M3
40 mm №11 twin mount for №3 - prewar №4
40 mm №12 quad mount for №2 - 2 pdr RP mtg Mk 7*
40 mm №13 mount for №6

AJAX - twin 35 mm Oerlikons in similar mount to the army's PRTL
SEM30 - Goalkeeper preliminary with four 30 mm Mausers
SGE30 - Goalkeeper

 

[Sanglune]

Anyways, now that I made a thread, I have a suitable place to post some design I found:
Firstly I have a blueprint of an De Zeven Provinciën class proposal.
Judging from the lack of the 57 mm battery and the pressence of 5¼-inch ordnance in Bofors turrets I reckon this is from ca. 1946 - 1947.

Source: Nationaal Archief: 2.13.166 Inventaris van het archief van de Directie Materieel van de Koninklijke Marine en taakvoorganger, 1943-1990 inventory number 4052

 

[Sanglune]

Next, I have found a Vickers destroyer of 1100 tons from around the early 1920s.
I also have blueprints of Thornycroft destroyers of 950, 1400, 1400 and 1600 tons and the Admiralen class version based on the latter.
Sadly, I have not obtained affirmative clearance to share the Thornycroft images. So I'll have to keep you in suspense.
The particulars of the Thornycroft designs were 3 - 4" guns and 1 - 3" guns for the 950 tons design and 4 - 4.7" guns for the larger ones, with each design differing in AA consisting of 2 pdrs, one or two 3" guns and a carried floatplane.

Edit: Source: 2.12.18 Chef van de Marinestaf, inventory number 216

 

[Hardrada55]

Thank you, this is excellent!

 

[00-PureEvil-00]

> The better KM
Sarcasticat is out for your blood xD

Next, I have found a Vickers destroyer of 1100 tons from around the early 1920

Very interesting find.

Firstly I have a blueprint of an De Zeven Provinciën class proposal

Bofors turrets for British 5.25s? Intriguing.

P.S. That one could become WG's Vrijheid, but why bother when you can just slap Oland's turrets on copy-pasted D7P hull... sorry, a bit of personal pain from a weirdo who still seeks historicity in WoWS.

 

[Sanglune]

Bofors turrets for British 5.25s? Intriguing.

P.S. That one could become WG's Vrijheid, but why bother when you can just slap Oland's turrets on copy-pasted D7P hull... sorry, a bit of personal pain from a weirdo who still seeks historicity in WoWS.

I think they wanted to make the guns 5.25-inch to make the guns accept British pattern munitions, though I cannot at the moment find any mention for this being specifically the case. It is most certainly distinct from the British Mk IIIs they had on other blueprints.

Also while Wargaming uses the name and values for Öland's turrets, they actually use a butchered model of the 12 cm №9 with an extra trunnion outside of the armoured protrusion made for the trunnion.

 

[Roodbaard1958!]

I figured we could do with a general thread for certain matters pertaining the Royal Dutch Navy instead of having multiple smaller threads enter the void of obscurity.


Useful links:

Netherlandsnavy - has reprints of the Washington International articles about the Battlecruiser 1939 - 1940 and Battleships 1914
https://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/

Delpher - notable entries are the periodicals "Marineblad" and "Jaarboek van de Koninklijke Marine"
https://www.delpher.nl/

Nationaal Insituut voor Militaire Historie
pictures and movies: https://beeldbank.nimh.nl/
archives: https://www.archieven.nl/mi/2231/

National Archives
https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/

The big blueprint library - 4.MST (National Archives)
https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/onderzoeken/archief/4.MST

Schelde Navy Blueprints
7532 Tekeningen Marinescheepsbouw Kon. Mij. De Schelde (KMS), 1876-1970

My own blog with the occasional Dutch stuff
https://warshipsunarchived.blogspot.com/

Threads of interest:
Nevesbu's projects
Early Post-WWII Dutch Submarines: Unbuilt 3 and 4 pressure hull designs
Preliminary design for Netherlands Cruiser DeRuyter with 8" guns
Dutch Post-WW2 Battleship
Eendracht-class cruiser (as designed pre-war)
Lists of Unbuilt Royal Navy and British Export Ships
Fokker Alpha-Numeric Aircraft Designations

Nice that article on your weblog dealing wit the Oerlikon rocket armament, I was 40 years ago responsible for describing the archive of the naval staff 1945-1948 and last decade for the naval drawings in the archive of Kon. Mij. De Schelde, I am pleased that somebody is using both archives.

 

[Sanglune]

I also have blueprints of Thornycroft destroyers of 950, 1400, 1400 and 1600 tons and the Admiralen class version based on the latter.
Sadly, I have not obtained affirmative clearance to share the Thornycroft images. So I'll have to keep you in suspense.
The particulars of the Thornycroft designs were 3 - 4" guns and 1 - 3" guns for the 950 tons design and 4 - 4.7" guns for the larger ones, with each design differing in AA consisting of 2 pdrs, one or two 3" guns and a carried floatplane.

Good news, the blueprints can be viewed online. Also I may have confused the company name. It was Yarrow not Thornycroft.

Plan of a 33 knot 950 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646706
Plan of a 34 knot 1400 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646707
Plan of a 34 knot 1400 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646708
Plan of a 34 knot 1400 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646709
Plan of a 34 knot 1600 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646728
Ned. Torpedobootjager.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/733644

 

[00-PureEvil-00]

Good news, the blueprints can be viewed online. Also I may have confused the company name. It was Yarrow not Thornycroft.

The second and third picture look like the same blueprint photographed under different lighting... no, they ARE exactly the same, save for writings in lower right corner. Or there are some subtle differences in blueprints that I fail to notice?

Otherwise, excellent find. Although the 950-ton one looks like something that should be offered to Netherlands in 1913-14, not in 1925, but well, who knows what they were thinking about back then...

 

[Tzoli]

Anyways, now that I made a thread, I have a suitable place to post some design I found:
Firstly I have a blueprint of an De Zeven Provinciën class proposal.
Judging from the lack of the 57 mm battery and the pressence of 5¼-inch ordnance in Bofors turrets I reckon this is from ca. 1946 - 1947.

Source: Nationaal Archief: 2.13.166 Inventaris van het archief van de Directie Materieel van de Koninklijke Marine en taakvoorganger, 1943-1990 inventory number 4052

Any other info on the 133mm gun? Is it really a Bofors proposal, or re-use of the British QF Mark I? or even a Wilton-Fijenoord design?
Any other info regarding the proposal itself? Armour, Engine, displacement etc?

 

[Tzoli]

Good news, the blueprints can be viewed online. Also I may have confused the company name. It was Yarrow not Thornycroft.

Plan of a 33 knot 950 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646706
Plan of a 34 knot 1400 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646707
Plan of a 34 knot 1400 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646708
Plan of a 34 knot 1400 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646709
Plan of a 34 knot 1600 tons Destroyer.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/646728
Ned. Torpedobootjager.
https://collectie.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/Details/collect/733644

Could these be prelimianries of the Admiralen class Destroyers? (Van Ghent and Van Galen subclass?)
The 950ton design armament of 4" guns. Are these to be of British origin or Bofors (105mm)? Same for the 3" AA?

 

[Tzoli]

The second and third picture look like the same blueprint photographed under different lighting... no, they ARE exactly the same, save for writings in lower right corner. Or there are some subtle differences in blueprints that I fail to notice?

Otherwise, excellent find. Although the 950-ton one looks like something that should be offered to Netherlands in 1913-14, not in 1925, but well, who knows what they were thinking about back then...

They are slightly different.
The first 1.400ton design had 4x1 12cm, 1x1 76mm and 1 Seaplane
The second replaced the seaplane and AA gun to 3x 40mm 2-pdr AA guns and got shorter from 96meters to 94,5meters (from 315 to 310ft)
The 3rd seems to be the same?
But myself as well could not see a difference between the 2nd and 3rd designs

 

[Sanglune]

The second and third picture look like the same blueprint photographed under different lighting... no, they ARE exactly the same, save for writings in lower right corner. Or there are some subtle differences in blueprints that I fail to notice?

The 3rd seems to be the same?

You are right, they're just both copies of the same blueprint. I just posted everything and since they're two different objects it went by me. I was already wondering why I had one more design than I remembered.

 

[Hood]

Relevant crossposting.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/kriegsmarine-central-km-ship-plans-discussion.37568/page-26#post-719147