Jean Bart BB question

lancer21

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Assuming a relatively straightforward FFO scenario, or indeed any other suitable ATL, could the Jean Bart be fitted in a US shipyard with two triple turrets with 16 inch /50 Mark 2 guns, of the kind initially planned for the Iowa (but as a result of laughable incompetence they had to build brand new guns for it as you know), that the US had in stock by the dozens, leftovers from the South Dakotas of 1920. Though it is not clear if whole turrets/turntables left over from the SoDaks existed.

I have tried a bit of digging and it appears the barbette diameter as planned for the 16in/50 Mark 2 of 39ft 4in would actually be LESS than the barbette diameter for quad 380mm turrets as on Jean Bart, so it could be made to fit right?

How long do you thing such a rebuild/refit would take, and when would it be likely for it to take place?
 
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Firstly, what do you mean by “in stock”? By the normal usage of that term the USN had only 3 of these barrels in warehouses after 1941.

Why? Because in 1920-24 20 barrels were passed to the US Army who reconfigured them for use in coastal gun batteries (5 x 2 gun batteries + spare barrels). Then in 1941, after the Iowa fiasco, the remainder, bar 3, (48 barrels) were similarly repurposed. At that point the US Army were proposing 27 x 2 gun batteries. 21 of these battery sites were constructed to take them but not all were armed. In 1945 the US Army still had 40 in active gun batteries around the US and Panama and possibly also Panama.

So the US Army has maybe 28 barrels “in stock”.

So problem 1. The USN, responsible for ship construction / refitting for USN and foreign ships, has to persuade the US Army to give a bare minimum of 3 + spares of these weapons up to add to the USN stock to even begin to think about re-equipping Jean Bart. At what point from early 1943 does the US feel safe enough that it doesn’t need to rely on expansion of its coast defences? AIUI that didn’t happen until late 1943.

Then we come to Jean Bart herself. The French first asked to US to assist in her completion as designed on 15 April 1943 and this was rejected on 1 May. Plans were revisited and a compromise with one turret with French guns plus a heavy AA battery of US weapons proposed. Again rejected 18 Aug 1943. There was then an appeal direct to Admiral King on 8 Dec 1943. In March 1944 the French were advised that the USN was unwilling to divert resources to the ship.

No doubt the experience refitting Richelieu between Feb and Sept 1943 helped inform this process. Ultimately the US refused to refit anything beyond Richelieu, the 3 Montcalm class cruisers, Emile Berlin and the 4 Le Fantasque class. Even then they refused to give them the then latest radar outfits.

Lest you think this was a dislike of anything French, proposed reconstructions of HMS Nelson and Rodney were also being rejected around this time.

So your proposal to fit these new 16”/50 turrets (if available) and guns involves far more extensive work than any of the proposals in real life. The whole forward part of the ship would need to be redesigned, torn apart and reconstructed to take the stresses and strains of the new armament. It is not just a case of slipping the new barbette inside the old. All the ammunition handling would have to be rebuilt as well from the bottom of the ship upwards. Then there are practical problems of things like metric v US measurements to be overcome in everything that goes back into the ship.

So even under the best of conditions such a conversion can’t start before late 1943. Time involved? At least 1 year. Look at the time that the reconstruction of Tennessee (8 months), California (15 months) and West Virginia (14 months) to get some idea of time involved. And that of Richelieu (7 months). OK less battle damage to fix but more reconstruction around the turrets. And if the turrets are not available then they may take longer to build than the reconstruction of the ship itself.

And all to what end? By the end of 1944 the Allies have plenty of Battleships in service and the Axis an ever diminishing number. Tirpitz has gone. Musashi has gone. The Italian fleet has surrendered. The RN has been decommissioning its older unmodernised ships for a year.

So for a whole variety of reason, political, practical and resources wise, this is a crazy idea that could never, ever get off the ground.
 
Frankly, I don't see much of a point to the fit of 16" guns. By the time refit becomes possible in 1943, the Allies have more than enough battleships for their needs and the amount of reconstruction work just magnifies the issue; by the time she's done and worked up it'll be post-Leyte, a time when the Italian battle fleet is captured, the German battle fleet nonexistent, and the Japanese battle fleet wrecked by Leyte.

Postwar, while yes the French wanted ammunition commonality with the US (hence the 5" guns on the T47 and T51 classes) the ability to use American shells is outweighed by the French needing to stock yet another caliber of ammunition. They had too many gun calibers as it was.

Tactically, 6 16" is just at the edge of acceptable for salvo fire, and in all honesty Jean Bart doesn't need the extra penetration against anything short of a Yamato.
 
I'm out of my depth here but, if ammunition supply is the issue, would the British BL 15-inch Mark I round suit the French guns?
 
I'm out of my depth here but, if ammunition supply is the issue, would the British BL 15-inch Mark I round suit the French guns?
Probably not. The French gun was ever so slightly a different caliber, the French shells were a good ten inches longer, and the French and British used rather different propellant charges - British propellant was almost pure nitroglycerin while French was almost pure nitrocellulose, and existing charges were already a bit too powerful for the guns. American propellant composition was much closer to French. And in any case the US doesn't seem to have had any trouble making projectiles for Richelieu.
 
15 inch is 381 cm when the french gun were 380 cm. I know, minuscule difference: but still.
 
15 inch is 381 cm when the french gun were 380 cm. I know, minuscule difference: but still.

Thanks, I was imagining a millimetres worth of wear on the French guns ... btw, mm not cm ;)

In any case, CV12Hornet's answer puts paid to my 15-inch notion. Wrong length, wrong propellant. And, in any case, it sounds like the US could supply French ammunition needs ... so, I was ineptly trying to solve a problem which didn't exist.
 

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