Joint New Air-to-Air Missile (JNAAM)

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Donald McKelvy
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"Japan, Britain To Launch Joint Missile Research"
Jul. 17, 2014 - 03:30PM |
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESS

Source:
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140717/DEFREG03/307170036/Japan-Britain-Launch-Joint-Missile-Research

TOKYO — Japan said Thursday it would join forces with Britain to jointly develop missile technology for fighter jets, while also moving to export Japanese-made parts for US surface-to-air missiles.

The decision comes several months after Japan lifted a self-imposed ban on weapons exports, as Prime Minister Shinzo Abe looks to expand Japan’s diplomatic and military presence on the global stage.

The exports would be the first since Japan in April approved a new policy that replaces its 1967 blanket ban on shipping arms overseas.

The joint research with Britain was linked to a European missile project called Meteor, with an initial emphasis on how current Japanese technology could enhance British-developed missiles, according to a statement jointly issued by several ministries, including Japan’s foreign and defense ministries.

The Meteor project, which is developing missiles for Eurofighter planes, is being led by Franco-British missile maker Matra BAe Dynamics (MBD) along with other European firms.

“We believe that we can create more sophisticated products by bringing together the finest technologies from both Britain and Japan,” a Japanese defense official told a press briefing Thursday evening.

In a separate decision, Tokyo would also allow US-bound exports of parts for the Patriot Advanced Capability-2 (PAC-2) missile defensesystem developed by Washington.

The parts were originally supplied by a US defense contractor that no longer makes the product.

An earlier report this month by the leading Nikkei business daily said Mitsubishi Heavy Industries plans to export a high-performance sensor for the PAC-2 missile defense system.

The sensor is a key component of an infrared device at the tip of the missile that identifies and tracks targets, the Nikkei said.

Under Japan’s new arms export rules, weapon sales are still banned to conflict-plagued countries or nations that could undermine international peace and security, and they must contribute to international peace and boost pacifist Japan’s security.
 
basically a missile with existing British feet, and a new Japanese head
 
I did not know that F-2 about the AAM-4 having a AESA seeker, thanks.
F-15J uses it too, probably more prolifically. Mica NG will have an AESA seeker but I’m not sure if it’s in service. The UK and Japan are working on putting the AAM-4 seeker on the Meteor as well. AAM-4B is the only one I’m sure is in service though.
 
Liking the sound of the Meteor getting the AAM-4 seeker. What would AESA radars bring to air to air missiles over the normal seeker heads that are in use right now? Faster tracking?
 

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I thought it was a more generic seeker that obviously includes learning from AAM-4, but is not the same seeker
Yea, it’s based off the AAM-4 seeker but correct it’s not literally the same. AAM-4 GaAs seeker, JNAAM GaN.
 
Not good news about SPEAR 3, and by the way is the Joint New Air to Air Missile going to be a replacement for the Meteor?
 
by the way is the Joint New Air to Air Missile going to be a replacement for the Meteor?
JNAAM budget was not reflected in Japanese FY2023 budget, meaning that it's probably scrapped. If the programme is officially cancelled, and when it is, the reason behind it, is not provided.
 
JNAAM budget was not reflected in Japanese FY2023 budget, meaning that it's probably scrapped. If the programme is officially cancelled, and when it is, the reason behind it, is not provided.

Huh?


It also secured 300 million yen to push ahead with the co-development of a Joint New Air-to-Air Missile (JNAAM) with the United Kingdom during fiscal year 2023. The funding is for preparation costs related to the performance evaluation testing of the new missile’s seeker. The JNAAM program is Tokyo’s first defense equipment project with a foreign partner other than the United States.
 
Huh?

You're citing old news. I'm talking about a report from April this year. Also I made a mistake in saying that "it is not provided if the programme is officially cancelled", but revisiting this matter, I've found that the programme is indeed officially cancelled, as shown with below statement on official document :
本プログラムは構想段階で終了するため、ベースラインとしてのライフサイクルコストを定めない。
 
You're citing old news. I'm talking about a report from April this year. Also I made a mistake in saying that "it is not provided if the programme is officially cancelled", but revisiting this matter, I've found that the programme is indeed officially cancelled, as shown with below statement on official document :
According to Japanese sources (no hard evidence in document), the biggest reason JNAAM was shelved was due to the French opposition, since Meteor missile seeker is a joint programme between Thales and MBDA's seeker division. They feared that they would lose workshare to the Japanese since the JNAAM seeker was essentially a Japanese design and product. There are also other problems mentioned as well, but also unconfirmed. Anyways, if true, it will mean that joint Japan-Britain AAM for GCAP will be developed from scratch. I'm not sure if the British counterpart would be willing to fund a new missile so soon after Meteor. They probably would utilize seeker technology Japan transferred during the JNAAM programme. Same for Japan.
 
You're citing old news. I'm talking about a report from April this year. Also I made a mistake in saying that "it is not provided if the programme is officially cancelled", but revisiting this matter, I've found that the programme is indeed officially cancelled, as shown with below statement on official document :

I think this may be an issue of semantics. The UK-Japan joint project was concept exploration. It may transition to a procurement effort under a different name.
 
I think this may be an issue of semantics. The UK-Japan joint project was concept exploration. It may transition to a procurement effort under a different name.
No, it seems like it's actually canned, since the follow on test programme after the test programme in UK was concluded was supposed to take place in Japan. All the related documents regarding the programme, such as test instrument and test data processing contract tenders were gone by the time the budget allocation was null.

I understand that you want the project to be alive, but it does seems like it is actually dead, at least in its current form.

Also, this : https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...unch-joint-missile-research.22481/post-611455

Japan does seem to be willing to develop a new M/LRAAM that replaces AAM-4B however, so I do think there will be a new missile on that part. Though on the British side of things, it seems more likely that they'll stick with the Meteor with upgraded AESA seeker leveraging ToT they've received from Japan as part of the JNAAM programme. Nonetheless, who knows, maybe the Brits will be enticed by the fact that Japan is wiling to create a missile with or without them and decide maybe it makes sense to develop a new AAM for a new generation of fighter.
 
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I'm not invested in it, just skeptical that they threw away the effort that easily.
 
I'm not invested in it, just skeptical that they threw away the effort that easily.
Well it depends on how you define "threw away". To me JNAAM programme at this point of time has been more of technology sharing programme. Seeker tech from Japan to Britain, and solid state integrated ramjet propulsion technology for air to air missile from Britain to Japan. How they'll leverage the shared technologies and experience gained from integrating the two, that we'll see from what they decide in the future.
 
Well it depends on how you define "threw away". To me JNAAM programme at this point of time has been more of technology sharing programme. Seeker tech from Japan to Britain, and solid state integrated ramjet propulsion technology for air to air missile from Britain to Japan. How they'll leverage the shared technologies and experience gained from integrating the two, that we'll see from what they decide in the future.

Well, you were definitely right. Sorry for doubting you.
 
One thing I noticed after JNAAM was canceled is that Japan actually made a ducted version of the AAM-4 prior to that program back in 2007. In this configuration it has an extra booster for ground launches, but perhaps we could see this missile revived post JNAAM.
1690507636307.png
 
Apparently the research project since its inception in 2018 was always planned to conclude at the end of FY2023 (March 2024) with no program funds after that year. Indeed those Japanese slides say they don't plan to enter production immediately at the end of the testing program but to take their time evaluating the live fire testing data.

Its likely that they will proceed to a larger design based on the more spacious payload bay of GCAP rather than continuing to design the compact version to fit the F-35B's bays accepting they could just carry it externally.
 
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They could also plan to build a new engine. Like taking RDE and the Ramjet together in a 8 in. package.
 
Well it depends on how you define "threw away". To me JNAAM programme at this point of time has been more of technology sharing programme. Seeker tech from Japan to Britain, and solid state integrated ramjet propulsion technology for air to air missile from Britain to Japan. How they'll leverage the shared technologies and experience gained from integrating the two, that we'll see from what they decide in the future.

Be interesting to know how that worked in detail, given that the Meteor propulsion tech is actually German (Bayern Chemie).
 
The Yahoo article is heavily geofenced (cant even read it with a proxy) but the comment seems to suggest the design saved 10% in weight.
The story linked by Facelessman that the program will terminate after testing and wont move into mass production is consistent with the information that had been provided all along though.
 
All RAMJET missiles suffer from the same disadvantages.This is increased drag, limited angles of attack and sliding
 
All RAMJET missiles suffer from the same disadvantages.This is increased drag, limited angles of attack and sliding
That is not entirely true. One of the key advantage of ramjet missile is the ability to reduce thrust in start and mid phase if the target is at long range. By reducing thrust, they can have lower cruising speed and that can reduce drag and fuel consumption significantly, as a result, they still have fuel to accelerate at terminal phase. Normal solid fuel rocket often use all their fuel in 4-5 seconds right after launch and coasting in terminal phase.
 
That is not entirely true. One of the key advantage of ramjet missile is the ability to reduce thrust in start and mid phase if the target is at long range. By reducing thrust, they can have lower cruising speed and that can reduce drag and fuel consumption significantly, as a result, they still have fuel to accelerate at terminal phase. Normal solid fuel rocket often use all their fuel in 4-5 seconds right after launch and coasting in terminal phase.
What nonsense you wrote. Air-to-air missiles use solid fuel in their composition, they cannot regulate the thrust or the burning rate of fuel, unlike such missiles as 3M8 or X-31A, P, 3M80, etc. where liquid fuel is used.Gorenje They will always have increased drag, because the rocket is moving at supersonic speed, and an additional shock wave is formed at the entrance to the air intake
 
CFD meteor
 

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What nonsense you wrote. Air-to-air missiles use solid fuel in their composition, they cannot regulate the thrust or the burning rate of fuel, unlike such missiles as 3M8 or X-31A, P, 3M80, etc. where liquid fuel is used.Gorenje
Do some basic research before you claim something is nonsense.
Ability to throttle down is literally the reason why Meteor can get extreme NEZ with such small missile
1.PNG


Not only that Meteor can reduce the burn rate, it can actually reduce the burn rate by 12 times
3.PNG
They will always have increased drag, because the rocket is moving at supersonic speed, and an additional shock wave is formed at the entrance to the air intake
Drag is proportional to speed square, slower velocity mean lower drag, simple as that.
 
Сопротивление пропорционально квадрату скорости, меньшая скорость означает меньшее сопротивление, вот и все.
the resistance is still orders of magnitude higher than that of conventional missiles, and the problem with the angles of attack and sliding has not gone away, since the RAMJET uses air as an oxidizer.So a flight above 20km is not possible
 
Judging by this phrase, the Gas generator turn down ratio could be extended beyond 12:1, here it means the inlet pressure can vary within these limits, and not the fuel consumption during gorenje
 
the consumption ratio of 10:1 most likely means that 10 kg of air is required for the combustion of 1 kg of fuel, and not 14.7 as with kerosene
 
Trends in the development of RAMJET in air-to-air missiles are not yet visible. The only serial representative of MBDA Meteor, although this type of engine was developed a long time ago. But not Russia, the USA, China, Israel do not switch to air-to-air missiles with RAMJET. Instead, the P-37M, PL-21, AIM-260 are made (questionable)
 

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