Italian guided torpedoes of WW II

[Dilandu]

Hello. I'm not sure this post should be right here, but it's the closest theme I found.

Does anyone have any data about the radio-controlled torpedo that - according to some sources - was supposed to be used from P.108? According to available data, the aforementioned torpedo was developed in 1940-1943 by Piero Crocchi, and it was aerial torpedo, controlled by radio-command system from the bomber (or from control plane). For the tracking of the torpedo in water, the fluorescent trail was left in her wake.

All that I was able to found is this (please forgive me for rough translation):

1940-1943 Radio-controlled torpedo
Given by the ingeniousness of Ing. Piero Crocchi is made by Ten.Col.
Rinaldi and from the Ten. Col. Freri initially on torpedoes type A / 130 then on
torpedoes A / 170 the project planned to be able to radioguide a torpedo against the
opposing ships.
The big advantage was to be able to launch the weapon at 3500 meters. of
distance from the target to avoid the direct fire of the ship and not
alarm the opponent who could change the course.
The experiments were very promising even if for lack of funds only
in 1941 a conclusive report could be given, in practice it was aimed at
with a squadron of 5 vehicles you can launch 4 weapons at low altitude
while the 5 high-altitude aircraft drove on the target.
The torpedo could travel about 6km at the speed of 36 knots emitting
a green fluorescent trail to be seen from above, could be
equipped with a parachute to be launched from 400-500mt.
In addition to the Sm79 tests were launched by the P108, but now it was
too late .
The Germans were very interested in the trials so much that in July 1943
they asked for all 10 of them to be cropped up for the radio control and gave it to me
change 20 specimens of variable pitch propellers.
Even the British were interested in the weapon, the Mar. Polidori (a
test) at the end of September 1943 was approached by a W.C. of the Raf that
he asked about the project despite the reticence of the first W.C. he did
see all flight excerpts performed in Gorizia with the "secret" weapon
Italian.

I'll be very grateful for any data about this weapon system.

 

[hesham]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Nice info Dilandu.

 

[Dilandu]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Thank you) Managed to find the one (possibly the only one) image of said torpedo being dropped from SM.79:

 

[hesham]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Thank you) Managed to find the one (possibly the only one) image of said torpedo being dropped from SM.79:

Amazing,new for me,thank you Dilandu.

 

[Temistocle]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Hi all,
I found some other info about the "Siluro Radiocomandato" (radio-controlled torpedo) in an Italian book, below the three pages (pp. 68-70) with three pictures, one of these taken some seconds after the picture posted by Dilandu. The small object behind the torpedo is the buoy needed to control the torpedo from the aircraft.
If you need translation, please give me a couple of days for it.

The book is:
Daniele Lembo
Prototipi e progetti della Regia Aeronautica
IBN Editore, 2010.

 

[hesham]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Nice find Temistocle.

 

[Dilandu]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Hi all,
I found some other info about the "Siluro Radiocomandato" (radio-controlled torpedo) in an Italian book, below the three pages (pp. 68-70) with three pictures, one of these taken some seconds after the picture posted by Dilandu. The small object behind the torpedo is the buoy needed to control the torpedo from the aircraft.
If you need translation, please give me a couple of days for it.

The book is:
Daniele Lembo
Prototipi e progetti della Regia Aeronautica
IBN Editore, 2010.

Thank you for the data!

P.S. Does this book contain data about other Italian guided weapon proposals of WW2 era?

 

[Temistocle]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Hi Dilandu,
below there is the index of the book.
If there is something interesting to you, let me know.

Bye

 

[Temistocle]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Sorry Dilandu,
I re-read your post now:
talking about ONLY controlled weapons, the book contains info about the ARP (Aereo Radio pilotato, i.e. the known radio controlled SM-79), and the Aeronautica Lombarda AR (ad hoc built radio-controlled aircraft).
The other weapons described in the book are NOT guided/controlled.

Bye

 

[Dilandu]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Sorry Dilandu,
I re-read your post now:
talking about ONLY controlled weapons, the book contains info about the ARP (Aereo Radio pilotato, i.e. the known radio controlled SM-79), and the Aeronautica Lombarda AR (ad hoc built radio-controlled aircraft).
The other weapons described in the book are NOT guided/controlled.

Bye

No problem; and thank you!

About the abovementioned "flying bomb" projects, APR and AR - are there specific technical data about them? You see, I'm working on a series of articles (on Russian) about guided weapons of WW2 era, specifically about non well-known designs of Japan, Italy and France. While the WW2-era guided weapon systems of USA, Germany and to lesser extent Britain are well-known, the Japanese, French and Italian projects are almost completely unknown, especially in Russian military historical literature. So, I'm trying to found out as much as I could about them.

 

[Dilandu]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

P.S. If I'm not mistaken, "bomba a collisione" and "idrobomba" was some sort of glide bomb/torpedo devices? But I haven't heard of "bomba alata mulinacci"

Quite interesting book, anyway. Thank you for the index! Is there a way to purchase the ebook version?

 

[Temistocle]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Hi Dilandu,
I am not sure the book is a completely reliable source, because it still deal arguments as the Re 2007 and make some confusion between the projects... but, anyway:

"Bomba a collisione" was a (not guided) flying bomb of 1938 (Gaetano Arturo Crocco was the inventor); the book's author said the bomb was intended for the Italian Stukas (but the deal for the Ju-87 in Regia Aeronautica started in mid 1940). Maybe the initial use was intended for Breda Ba 65, used also for the first tests of 12 bombs at Furbara, after that the project was canceled. (Crocco was one of the proposers in 1917 of the "Telebomba Crocco-Guidoni" launched by dirigibles and patented in 1924 as US1508317; one of these bombs is displayed at the Vittoriale, the house/museum of poet Gabriele D'Annunzio, see a picture below and here http://www.aeromedia.it/gavs01.html ).

"Idrobomba" refers to two different projects (at least in the book), both intended to create a skip bomb; the first one, always from Crocco, was not build, while the second one, from Federico Zappelloni, was a glider with a bomb attached to it and tested in 1936 with a SM 81. The project was interrupted but the glider was used for the "Siluro Radiocomandato" (pictures in the pdf I already posted on September 16).

"Bomba alata Mulinacci" was a small (not guided) flying bomb proposed in 1943 by Otello Mulinacci (a worker of SIAI Marchetti). It transported an 210 mm artillery projectile; launched by a catapult (as the V-1) and using a 5-cylinder engine with contra-rotating propellers it would had a range of 150 km. A single prototype was tested, but without success (see below a three view drawing).

You can but the book here, but only in paper format:
http://www.ibneditore.it/shop/lembo-d-prototipi-e-progetti-della-regia-aeronautica/

I found another source in my books with some info about "bomba a collisione" and the "siluro radicomandato" (see below), but with some different details. In this case there are some errors in the captions, so I am not pretty sure of the validity of the text.

There are some other (and reliable) sources I have about Italian special weapon, just need to find the time to dig them from my books/magazines; but, by mere chance, last week I was in Rome for job, and I went in a small aviation bookshop I know near the central station. I found there "Vita ignorata del Centro Studi ed esperienze di Guidonia" (that describes the works at the Guidonia experimental station) and "Siluri and aerosiluri italiani" (for only 1 (one) euro !! )

Both are written by Bernardino Lattanzi, that worked in Guidonia during the war.

 

[hesham]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Wow,amazing,thank you Temistocle.

 

[Dilandu]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Thank you very much for the data, Temistocle! It's really valuable for me!

 

[Dilandu]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

You can but the book here, but only in paper format:
http://www.ibneditore.it/shop/lembo-d-prototipi-e-progetti-della-regia-aeronautica/

Hmmmm... a pity; shipping it in Russia may be a problem (or at least major headache).

 

[Silencer1]

Re: Italian guided torpedoes

Hello!

Perhaps, it would be better to start new thread about Italian underwater weapons, dividing them from the history of Piaggio P.108?

We already have nice story about Motobomba FFF and other secret underwater weapons here:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10863.msg129149.html#msg129149

And early Guidoni "winged" torpedo projects here:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,25050.msg259514.html#msg259514

As the Italian activity in the making and using torpedoes have been quite remarkable, I kindly asks about creating separate thread about them.

 

[Jemiba]

Done, thanks for the clue !
And if anyone comes up with a better title ...

 

[Dilandu]

Yes, it is very helpful indeed! Thank you!

 

[Dilandu]

Found this image of "bomba a collisione" (Crocco design).

A bit puzzled - what are those two round things on the top of the bomb? They did not seems to be part of any kind of propulsion system (there weren't any on this bomb).

 

[Dilandu]

One of my friends suggested that this could be Venturi tubes, for correct airspeed measurements for autopilot.

 

[Jan den Das]

Bomba a collisione very interresting.
Are there more details about this project?
Dimensions and a more complete drawings (vieuws top/front)?
I found these picture.
Jan

 

[Dilandu]

Unfortunately nothing coherent. But I'm starting to have a suspicion that it was actually a radio-controlled weapon. Not merely autopiloted one.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Bomba a collisione very interresting.
Are there more details about this project?
Dimensions and a more complete drawings (vieuws top/front)?
I found these picture.
Jan

If I can ask, whic aircraft It the One carryng this bomb?

 

[Apophenia]

If I can ask, whic aircraft It the One carryng this bomb?

Breda 65. Image from here: https://comandosupremo.com/forums/index.php?threads/italian-remote-controlled-bomb.642/

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Breda 65. Image from here: https://comandosupremo.com/forums/index.php?threads/italian-remote-controlled-bomb.642/

Thanks You!

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Unfortunately nothing coherent. But I'm starting to have a suspicion that it was actually a radio-controlled weapon. Not merely autopiloted

Unfortunately nothing coherent. But I'm starting to have a suspicion that it was actually a radio-controlled weapon. Not merely autopiloted one.

It was, It Is reported in multiple sources, here an example

 

[Dilandu]

It was, It Is reported in multiple sources, here an example

Thank you! What is this source?

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Thank you! What is this source?

Thank you! What is this source?

This book

 

[Temistocle]

I am not sure that "Bomba a collisione" was guided, I think it was controlled only by an autopilot (as a glide bomb).
Be aware that in that book some of the figure captions (and text) about Italian projects are wrong, i.e. page 46 and 49, the object in the figure is not a mine/bomb but a parachute cargo drop system (aerorifornitore), page 48 Giorgio Cicogna was not involved in radio controlled torpedoes (he was a rocket specialist, he died during a motor rocket experiment), other errors in the captions at pages 84-85.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

I am not sure that "Bomba a collisione" was guided, I think it was controlled only by an autopilot (as a glide bomb).
Be aware that in that book some of the figure captions (and text) about Italian projects are wrong, i.e. page 46 and 49, the object in the figure is not a mine/bomb but a parachute cargo drop system (aerorifornitore), page 48 Giorgio Cicogna was not involved in radio controlled torpedoes (he was a rocket specialist, he died during a motor rocket experiment), other errors in the captions at pages 84-85.

I saw that. Btw I'm gonna buy a book on the various Italian guided weapons test ecc. It should contain every detail

 

[Dilandu]

I am not sure that "Bomba a collisione" was guided, I think it was controlled only by an autopilot (as a glide bomb).

Unfortunately the data is extremely unclear.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

So after I talked with one of my contact that is what He said to me:
Red Part: Antenna for receive radio commands. The bomb was actually radio guided and it had it's radio receiver on the rear part.
Additional info
Orange part: Those two pipes were used as smoke generators so the pilot could mantain a visual contact with the bomb. (just like the yellow liquid emitted from the Radio siluro).

Btw I bought the book today, When It will arrive I will publish here the various info inside.
@Dilandu
@Temistocle

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

I also got some new pics too

a picture of the impact of a inert Bomba di Collisione during the tests


This part are the electric battery of the bomb (so that doubtfould source used before was actually right regard this part)


A Bomba di Collisione loaded on a Ba65 on a field before some tests (the date it's also interesting, 1940, most of the sources claims that tests ended in 1939).


a part of the hydraulic commands of the tail of the bomb

 

[Dilandu]

So after I talked with one of my contact that is what He said to me:
Red Part: Antenna for receive radio commands. The bomb was actually radio guided and it had it's radio receiver on the rear part.
Additional info
Orange part: Those two pipes were used as smoke generators so the pilot could mantain a visual contact with the bomb. (just like the yellow liquid emitted from the Radio siluro).

Thank you very much!!!

 

[Dilandu]

I also got some new pics too

Extremely interesting!

 

[Temistocle]

I saw that. Btw I'm gonna buy a book on the various Italian guided weapons test ecc. It should contain every detail

Please, of which book you are talking about?

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Please, of which book you are talking about?

it is from Italian historical archives

 

[Temistocle]

So after I talked with one of my contact that is what He said to me:
Red Part: Antenna for receive radio commands. The bomb was actually radio guided and it had it's radio receiver on the rear part.
Additional info
Orange part: Those two pipes were used as smoke generators so the pilot could mantain a visual contact with the bomb. (just like the yellow liquid emitted from the Radio siluro).
View attachment 715692
Btw I bought the book today, When It will arrive I will publish here the various info inside.
@Dilandu
@Temistocle

As can be see in the picture in your post #33 and in the sketch of post #19, the part in the red circle is a propeller, not an antenna. Crocco used the same configration in the previous Telebomba

 

[Temistocle]

it is from Italian historical archives
View attachment 715920

I have it, cheking on page 121 (after a long time) there is this about the "bomba a collisione":



For the non-Italian-readers: "bomba a collisione" was intended for dive bombing, released from a somwhat higher altitude to allow the dive bomber to escape at medium (not low) altitude, away from the range of AA light weapons. The bomb continued its flight in a straight oblique dive (picchiata obliqua rettilinea), that means the weapons was not guided.
I am still intrigued of the propeller function... in the Telebomba (a gliding weapon) it was used as a "clock" (after some revolutions) for the final dive on the target. I have to check this drawing with the internal arrangements of the Telebomba.

BTW 1: on the same page there is the drawing of post #19; it is printed upsidedown in the book, so everyone posted it online in this way. This is the right orientation of the drawing:



Proofs: on the Ba 65 is mounted in this way (with the "tubes" below), and the text in the red circle ("Sezione Longitudinale") now is not upsidedwn. I still did not find the original of this drawing in my archives research.

BTW 2 : the last picture of post 22 is also taken from this book (page 125), but is not a "bomba a collisione". It is not stated in the book, but it is one of the Zapelloni weapon carriers (double tail version)

 

[red admiral]

I'm not sure it's an "unguided" weapon as it has control surfaces and actuators. Some sort of inertial guidance (i.e. try to maintain current flight path) seems most likely to me. The aft mounted propeller and drive shaft seems most likely to me to be a power producing mechanism - it looks like it goes into a gearbox but then I don't know; maybe one of the bits is a hydraulic accumulator?