Italian domestic fighters post WW2?

[Lascaris]

More of a question. Come 1948 Italy was in the process of taking some first steps to rearming as part of the cold war. While apparently Italian companies had at least some paper projects for domestic aircraft, Piaggio P.146 has has been mentioned here before, AMI decided to license produce Vampire and then F-86 and by the early 1960s F-104 leaving Fiat's G.91 as the sole purely Italian design to enter service. By that time the only non FIAT design proposals (Aerfer Sagittario/Ariete/Leone) were arguably inferior.

So what do we need to get domestic aircraft by the early 1950s with the original Vampires followed by an Italian equivalent of Ouragan (A single seat FIAT G.82 variant perhaps? ) that can be followed by further development afterwards? Was it solely a matter of funding which is potentially fixable, for example by having to face a Stalinist Yugoslavia sans Tito-Stalin split or we need more fundamental changes to make something like this possible?

 

[royabulgaf]

Well, it seems that it would have been better if Italy rationalized their aircraft industry earlier. Too many companies chasing too few contracts. Also, they always seemed to have the wrong product. They were fooling around with light fighters when everyone was going with bigger, better, and more heavily armed. Their trainers sold worldwide, yet they never seemed to build on that. Probably because the bigger countries could flood the market with economies of scale.

 

[Lascaris]

Returning to this as the question keeps nagging at me. The Italians are not missing designers, license building Vampire also gives them some early experience with jets construction so what do you need to get an Italian Ouragan to get the ball going early? Stalinist Yugoslavia seems to me the best bet so far to get higher budgets for a start.

Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 2278]

I think you would need to change Italian participation in WW2 to achieve this. Either full neutrality or at least no North African capers.

With WW2 as is, Italy isn't going to be "permitted" a competitive indigenous aircraft industry early enough to fulfill your objective. Neither Britain or France would suffer a rival to their own re-burgeoning aircraft industries and frankly, if US $ are, to a large extent, being spent reforging the AMI, then it is only right and proper that US equipment be purchased to do it. Later, time heals all wounds but that's no use here.

A more stridently Communist Yugoslavia and nothing else just gets you USAFE F-100s (or similar) deployed rather than an Italian Ouragan/Mystère family IMO.

All that said, a Fiat G.80-series scaled up into something of a F-94-equivalent is fun to contemplate.

 

[kaiserd]

The Italians did design and produce post-war fighters/ combat aircraft (the G.91 variants, variants of its jet trainers, the AMX), and designed supersonic fighters (including for various NATO competitions etc.).
So roughly equivalent to what Germany did (arguably Italy more successful, sorry to any German contributors). And the UK only produced one genuine supersonic fighter on their own that entered service (the Lightening), though clearly a considerable number of successful subsonic designs.
The outlier is France via Dassault.

Italy was active in this area post-war (as noted above) but recognized solo development of top-tier modern combat aircraft was becoming beyond its real financial reach as these aircraft became increasingly more complex and expensive to develop and buy. A number of countries would have been (and would be) better off if they learned (or relearned) this same lesson earlier.
And Italy has consistently “won” from adopting this approach, fielding the likes of the Tornado, Typhoon and F-35 for less spending and much less risk than would have other wise been the case.

 

[archipeppe]

So what do we need to get domestic aircraft by the early 1950s with the original Vampires followed by an Italian equivalent of Ouragan (A single seat FIAT G.82 variant perhaps? ) that can be followed by further development afterwards?

You are forgetting the Stefanutti's fighter family of the various Ambrosini/Aerfer Sagittario, Ariete and Leone.
Rather than a non-existent single seat FIAT G.82 they were thought as fighter/interceptor by since.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aerfer-leone.9822/#post-90946

 

[Lascaris]

So what do we need to get domestic aircraft by the early 1950s with the original Vampires followed by an Italian equivalent of Ouragan (A single seat FIAT G.82 variant perhaps? ) that can be followed by further development afterwards?

You are forgetting the Stefanutti's fighter family of the various Ambrosini/Aerfer Sagittario, Ariete and Leone.
Rather than a non-existent single seat FIAT G.82 they were thought as fighter/interceptor by since.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aerfer-leone.9822/#post-90946

I'm not forgetting them but I have the distinct impression they come too late. Sagittario seems roughly comparable to Mystere but it first flies in May 1956, Mystere first flew in 1951 by 1956 you had Super Mystere in production and Mirage III about to fly in November. How do you get a Sagittario 5 years early?

 

[archipeppe]

How do you get a Sagittario 5 years early?

First Sagittario I flew 5th January 1953, to get it early was impossible for several reasons, let alone the fact that Italy lost the WWII (despite its Co-Belligerant period).

 

[riggerrob]

What if Bartini flees the USSR for political reasons?
Meanwhile Marcel Dassault is accused of collaboration and flees to Italy?

 

[archipeppe]

What if Bartini flees the USSR for political reasons?
Meanwhile Marcel Dassault is accused of collaboration and flees to Italy?

Bartini the so called "Red Baron" since his noble ascendence and his political belief, was simply too communist to give up the USSR.

Marcel Bloch/Dassault would be surely welcomed in Italy, but in that historical moment Italy didn't lacked talentous designers (Gabrielli, Stefanutti, Preti, Bazzocchi and Pascale brothers) it lacked only money.
So having a true genius like Dassault would be a missing opportunity for both France and Italy.

 

[Archibald]

Marcel Dassault is accused of collaboration

Born Marcel Bloch and thus a jew, he was deported by Vichy and nearly died in Buchenwald.

He was saved by communist resistants - and until his death in 1986, even as a capitalist merchant of war, he generously gave his money to the French PC.

So I don't think he liked Vichy that much.

It is a bit as if you asked a jew to kiss Hitler on his ugly mouth...

 

[Lascaris]

What if Bartini flees the USSR for political reasons?
Meanwhile Marcel Dassault is accused of collaboration and flees to Italy?

Bartini the so called "Red Baron" since his noble ascendence and his political belief, was simply too communist to give up the USSR.

Marcel Bloch/Dassault would be surely welcomed in Italy, but in that historical moment Italy didn't lacked talentous designers (Gabrielli, Stefanutti, Preti, Bazzocchi and Pascale brothers) it lacked only money.
So having a true genius like Dassault would be a missing opportunity for both France and Italy.

Quite so. Hence why I'm putting the question in therms of "how do you get Italy increasing her defence budget post 1948 sufficiently?" The only answers I can think off is Soviet tanks in the Brenner pass and/or an actively hostile Yugoslavia instead of Tito.

 

[archipeppe]

What if Bartini flees the USSR for political reasons?
Meanwhile Marcel Dassault is accused of collaboration and flees to Italy?

Bartini the so called "Red Baron" since his noble ascendence and his political belief, was simply too communist to give up the USSR.

Marcel Bloch/Dassault would be surely welcomed in Italy, but in that historical moment Italy didn't lacked talentous designers (Gabrielli, Stefanutti, Preti, Bazzocchi and Pascale brothers) it lacked only money.
So having a true genius like Dassault would be a missing opportunity for both France and Italy.

Quite so. Hence why I'm putting the question in therms of "how do you get Italy increasing her defence budget post 1948 sufficiently?" The only answers I can think off is Soviet tanks in the Brenner pass and/or an actively hostile Yugoslavia instead of Tito.

No way.
Italy lost the War and until she met NATO that was little she can do. No money at all and barely armed forces were allowed to survive....

Even in case of Soviet invasion would be the Allies to take the action to save Italy like the Berlin airlift.