International Fighter Aircraft Competition (rivals to the F-5E)

[overscan (PaulMM)]

We have some topics on the IFA contenders (V-1000, CL-1200) but I can't find something on the competition in general. Came across this. It's been claimed that the USAF recommended the V-1000. According to this, the performance was CL-1200, F-4, V-1000, F-5E but cost was in the same rankings, so F-5E won on cost.

Hearings on Military Posture and H.R. 3818 and H.R. 8687

 

[starviking]

Going from what I've read on the other participants in the competition, I wonder if the General is using "performance" as shorthand for "speed". It certainly seems to be a perfect fit for the text.

 

[hesham]

By the way,

I spoke about this version of F-4 for this competition before,but where ?.

 

[LowObservable]

What it sounds like is that the four final contenders ranked in the same order for high performance and low cost. But all met what we'd call threshold requirements today, and the contest was LPTA (lowest price, technically acceptable), so the F-5E won. Given the number of F-5Es around today it was probably a good decision.

 

[Archibald]

Also, the F-5E really held its own against MiG-21s, either during the Iraq - Iran war or... in DACT excercices at Nellis AFB.

While the Phantom remain too big and the CL-1200 was only a mockup, I can't help but thinking that the V-1000 could have been a great aircraft...

 

[Pioneer]

If I may Archibald, could I add to your quote:

While the Phantom remain too big

and complex to maintain,

and the CL-1200 was only a mockup, I can't help but thinking that the V-1000 could have been a great aircraft...

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Archibald]

The Phantom was a maintenance hog, that's sure.

In restrospect, it sounds logical they picked the F-5E after the success of the F-5A. Introducing a very different aircraft would have disrupted logistics, among others things. A good example is Iran, who bought every variant of the Tiger and Tiger II - both F-5A and F-5E, although most of the later were sold back to third parties (South Vietnam !)

There is a great alternate history to be written, where the Crusader is picked in place of the F-5A in the early 60's. That's the real lost opportunity. Once the F-5A sold in large numbers, it was quite predictible the F-5E would happen.
Now had the Crusader been chosen, the story of naval aviation in France, Great Britain and the United States might be completely different. But that's not the subject of this thread (will open another one in the appropriate section).

 

[Rickshaw]

I think the most interesting opportunity which was missed was the case of the Mirage IIIW (W for "Wichita") which Boeing was planning to produce if they won the original fighter competition which was won by the F-5A. If the Mirage IIIW had won, I could see the equivalent of the Nesher and the Kfer occuring about 10 years earlier. The Kfer would be, IMO, equivalent to the F-5E.

 

[Archibald]

it's Kfir, not Kfer. I smell a stupid autocorrect function there...

Having a crapload of American Mirage III in place of all these F-5 might be fun, but really, a French aircraft in U.S colors ? won't happen, even with mighty Boeing involved...

 

[Stargazer]

a French aircraft in U.S colors ?

Well, there have been precedents... (okay, I've cheated a bit with the last one! ;D )

 

[Rickshaw]

it's Kfir, not Kfer. I smell a stupid autocorrect function there...

Having a crapload of American Mirage III in place of all these F-5 might be fun, but really, a French aircraft in U.S colors ? won't happen, even with mighty Boeing involved...

I am sure that the builders of the XB-51 and the XV-12 believed that too. Still didn't stop the USAF buying the B-57 or the USMC purchasing the AV-8A. There have been precedents to the adoption of foreign designed aircraft...

 

[Pioneer]

Found this in regards to the Boeing/Dassault Mirage IIIW:

"In the early 1960s, the USAF launched a competition to procure a light fighter aircraft for its allies. The idea was to obtain an inexpensive aircraft intended mainly for export to South America, Africa and Asia. In fact, the Northrop F-5A Freedom Fighter, which had just flown and had been built according to these principles, was already in the sights. Lockheed's F-104 was also presented in this competition.

Boeing had no fighter to oppose it, but Dassault came to its aid with its Mirage IIIC, which it offered to Boeing. The idea was to have it built under license by Boeing at its factory in Wichita, Kansas.

The new device was called Mirage IIIW (for Wichita, therefore). Pratt & Whitney was to build the Atar 9B under license and Hughes was to build the Aida radar as well. The aircraft obtained would therefore have been very close to the Mirage IIIC, with only the entirely American weapon system. It could carry 4 tons of weaponry.

The aircraft manufacturers were enthusiastic and the negotiations went well. Boeing obtained a product to present to this market and developed its military branch. Dassault could hope to penetrate the American market. The agreement was signed on December 23, 1961. A small model was even made on this occasion. Boeing was planning to deliver the Mirage IIIW to Vietnam and was also starting to take an interest in the Mirage III V. A market of 600 units was expected.

But the project failed after a few months for several reasons. The opposition did not come only from the United States as one might think, but also from France. She was on the verge of leaving NATO Integrated Command and did not like the idea of the Mirage IIIW. In addition to the reluctance of the United States towards foreign military aircraft, it was also necessary to take into account Boeing's desire to devote itself instead to the TFX, a tactical fighter of varying sizes. The F-5A Freedom Fighter was the big winner of this competition."

(Source: https://aviationsmilitaires.net/v3/kb/aircraft/show/17429/dassault-mirage-iii-w)

Interesting!
What does forum memberd make of this?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[elmayerle]

it's Kfir, not Kfer. I smell a stupid autocorrect function there...

Having a crapload of American Mirage III in place of all these F-5 might be fun, but really, a French aircraft in U.S colors ? won't happen, even with mighty Boeing involved...

I am sure that the builders of the XB-51 and the XV-12 believed that too. Still didn't stop the USAF buying the B-57 or the USMC purchasing the AV-8A. There have been precedents to the adoption of foreign designed aircraft...

AV-8A was well before the XFV-12A. XFV-12A would have been competing with a Harrier derivative powered by the Pegasus 15. As things happened, the XFV-12A could not deliver the promised performance (couldn't even do VTOL) and the USMC went with the AV-8B instead.

 

[Pioneer]

it's Kfir, not Kfer. I smell a stupid autocorrect function there...

Having a crapload of American Mirage III in place of all these F-5 might be fun, but really, a French aircraft in U.S colors ? won't happen, even with mighty Boeing involved...

I am sure that the builders of the XB-51 and the XV-12 believed that too. Still didn't stop the USAF buying the B-57 or the USMC purchasing the AV-8A. There have been precedents to the adoption of foreign designed aircraft...

I must admit, I'm personally shocked with the amount of 'foreign designed' military equipment the U.S. military has been adopting in place of home-grown design weapons/systems over the last few years. I never saw that coming, let alone happening....


Regards
Pioneer

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

For Boeing Mirage IIIW see https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...on-mirage-iiiw-mirage-iiiv.14625/#post-431646

 

[F.L.]

Also, the F-5E really held its own against MiG-21s, either during the Iraq - Iran war or... in DACT excercices at Nellis AFB.

But also in Ethiopia where it seems that the F-5E & F-5A have done a very good job against Somali MiG-21MF & MiG-17 during Ogaden war of 1978,
in Yemen where the North Yemeni F-5E will shoot down some MiG-21s, Mi-8 and more during 1990s civil war.
And also in the Soviet Union where F-5Es captured from the ARVN were successfully tested against MiG-21 and MiG-23.

 

[riggerrob]

Back during the early 1960s, both the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Force evaluated: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Grumman F11 Tiger and North American F? Fury naval fighter and Northrop F-5.
F-5 was priority last on both lists, but politics won out and the votes ... dollars ... went to F-5s license-built by Canadair on the Island of Montreal.
A-4 Skyhawk was the only plane proven to be capable of landing on HMCS Bonaventure's short deck. It was tight, but doable.
This was when Canadian Admirals still wanted to maintain proficiency in ALL aspects of naval aviation and were still infatuated with the glory days of serving aboard Royal Navy "big ships" to earn promotions. OTOH the Canadian Treasury was in no mood to keep HMCS Bonaventure in service and the rest of the navy was already moving towards much smaller destroyer escorts equipped with one or two helicopters.