Indian RLV Tech Demonstrator Test

[XP67_Moonbat]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/space/5095909/India-plans-to-test-space-shuttle-in-next-12-months.html

Moonbat

 

[Matej]

Last night officials said if successful the shuttle may, in time, be used for other transport uses, but its main purpose now is to "reduce the cost of access to space."

How the hell can a reusable space shuttle launched by rocket reduce the cost compared to conventional expendable rocket??

 

[Matej]

From various sources such as:

http://www.nal.res.in/pages/ipdec08.htm
http://news.sawf.org/Health/56820.aspx
http://www.hindu.com/2009/04/01/stories/2009040161821100.htm

 

[cluttonfred]

Last night officials said if successful the shuttle may, in time, be used for other transport uses, but its main purpose now is to "reduce the cost of access to space."

How the hell can a reusable space shuttle launched by rocket reduce the cost compared to conventional expendable rocket??

Because you get to reuse the upper stage, control and navigation systems more than once?

 

[Matej]

...and also you need to bring it back to the launch pad, you need to extensively test it several times, because you must be 100% sure that it will not fail during the next launch, you need to replace thermal protection, because you manufacture less number (and reuse), the unit cost of every piece is higher, reuse means that you need to land somewhere or at least to survive the descent, which means a lot of additional dead weight, etc.

If it is really cheaper, then why any of the current rocket don't have some sort of reentry capsule that saves its expensive equipment? Lets hope that the first "kvazi-space" cost effective reusable system EVER will be Space Ship 2. I am a big fan of the reusable vehicles from the engineering point of view, but my believe in its cost efficiency is lost forever.

 

[avatar]

well regardless of your loss in faith in the cost effectiveness of such systems,

the Indian space people are determined to push on with this technology.

people there have told me that they wish to recreate the "Tata nano" experience in space.

How exactly are they gonna do it?

that one can speculate about.

 

[mz]

...and also you need to bring it back to the launch pad, you need to extensively test it several times, because you must be 100% sure that it will not fail during the next launch, you need to replace thermal protection, because you manufacture less number (and reuse), the unit cost of every piece is higher, reuse means that you need to land somewhere or at least to survive the descent, which means a lot of additional dead weight, etc.

If it is really cheaper, then why any of the current rocket don't have some sort of reentry capsule that saves its expensive equipment? Lets hope that the first "kvazi-space" cost effective reusable system EVER will be Space Ship 2. I am a big fan of the reusable vehicles from the engineering point of view, but my believe in its cost efficiency is lost forever.

Usually the cost analyzes have tended towards the result that reusability gets cheaper once you fly more than 50 times per year.

 

[avatar]

Remember Mathematica's space shuttle flight calculations people ?

Unfortunately the shuttle did not live up to 'expectations' there , did it? ;D

 

[mz]

Because STS couldn't and can't fly 50 times per year for various reasons - and there wasn't or isn't a market for that flight rate anyway - at least at that price point.

Of course, there are lots of different assumptions that change the game significantly.

Paraphrasing Orionblamblam said in his blog about Hermes, it doesn't make much sense if what you have is just a reusable payload shroud. It might make sense to start reusability from the bottom up too, from the first stages, though they have traditionally been cheap, but that is based on some assumptions too.

 

[Stargazer]

well regardless of your loss in faith in the cost effectiveness of such systems,
the Indian space people are determined to push on with this technology.
people there have told me that they wish to recreate the "Tata nano" experience in space.
How exactly are they gonna do it?
that one can speculate about.

Well, any candidate for a space trip in the equivalent of this ?

 

[avatar]

Me! Me ! regardless. ;D

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Count me in!

 

[antigravite]

If this is roomy enough, I'll join the crew too!

 

[Matej]

After seeing some crash tests of the Chinese cars, I definitely not! Fresh lacquer isn't everything. But I am crossing fingers and hope, that the ISRO will surprise us. It looks like a healthy organisation with a lot of enthusiasm, so we will see.

 

[avatar]

the tata nano is never going to crash at test speeds. the typical indian road speed is in the 15 kmph range

ISRO well might surprise us though.

 

[mz]

Considering how they have developed the indigenous cryogenic engine, of staged combustion variety, I wouldn't disregard their plans completely.

 

[Stargazer]

Then let's hope that thing will never reach markets where crash might happen at test speed.

 

[avatar]

the nano in those markets will be a buffed up version, compliant with the safety standards of those countries.

so the price point would also be different.

either way this innovation clearly has a lot of people in the "west" bugged and worried. no points for guessing why. but it does not matter . the march of history is inevitable.

 

[Orionblamblam]

the tata nano is never going to crash at test speeds.

Not until it gets to the US, and somebody makes the Nano more interesting and less useless.

 

[Stargazer]

the nano in those markets will be a buffed up version, compliant with the safety standards of those countries.

so the price point would also be different.

either way this innovation clearly has a lot of people in the "west" bugged and worried. no points for guessing why. but it does not matter . the march of history is inevitable.

In the case of the Nano, the march of innovation is very much backwards.

 

[avatar]

;D ;D ;D.

expected.

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

I wonder if there's any chance India would want to turn this into something like our X-37 here in the US? A future variant perhaps.

 

[avatar]

you mean military apps?

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Sure, why not?

 

[avatar]

this is an ISRO program. so military is taboo. DRDO has a similar program though .

 

[Stargazer]

So TWO Nano-style indian space shuttles in a near future?

 

[avatar]

yes but one carrying more "interesting" cargo. ;D

 

[antigravite]

this is an ISRO program. so military is taboo. DRDO has a similar program though .

Might not this ISRO project fairly be considered "dual use".

Not everything's publishable, as indicated in this scientist resume:

http://www.math.univ-toulouse.fr/~parte/Resume_YogeshParte.pdf

 

[JCage]

this is an ISRO program. so military is taboo. DRDO has a similar program though .

Might not this ISRO project fairly be considered "dual use".

Not everything's publishable, as indicated in this scientist resume:

http://www.math.univ-toulouse.fr/~parte/Resume_YogeshParte.pdf

Which organization permits all internal studies to be made public? I have rarely seen any commercial organization do so.

Once Mr Parte left ISRO, several of the projects he worked upon became ISRO's IP, and ISRO will protect its IP, being a commercial (to a degree) organization.

So just because "not everythings publishable" does not mean, that Mr Parte worked on anything dual use.

Now coming to the ties between the ISRO and DRDO - they are well referenced and documented. There are people from ISRO who joined DRDO and vice versa, but that is not necessarily a big deal. The point is people in ISRO could not work on DRDO programs and remain in ISRO. There are strict firelines between the two orgs.

Personally, I consider it stupid in several ways, and typical of how India took Gandhian pacifism to ludicrous ends, creating two parallel setups and spending more money in the process.

 

[avatar]

http://www.isro.org/rep2009/citizens.htm

As a first step towards realising a Two Stage To Orbit (TSTO) fully re-usable launch vehicle, a series of technology demonstration missions have been conceived. For this purpose a Winged Reusable Launch Vehicle technology Demonstrator (RLV-TD) has been configured. The RLV-TD will act as a flying test bed to evaluate various technologies viz., hypersonic flight, autonomous landing, powered cruise flight and hypersonic flight using air breathing propulsion. First in the series of demonstration trials is the hypersonic flight experiment (HEX).


Towards this, Airframe Engineering model, axisymmetric proto nose cap after graphitisation (C-C) and slow burn rate propellant were realised. Aerodyanamic charcterisation of technology demonstration vehicle was completed at NAL, VSSC and IIST.

 

[avatar]

The same.

 

[avatar]

More,

 

[avatar]

http://www.toodoc.com/IITK-ppt.html

 

[airrocket]

More likely to happen than anyfurther developmentof the US manned space program. Sounds like NASA manned moon mars is over except for the final curtain draw which may take decades. I'd put my money on India.

 

[avatar]

The moon and mars mission are becoming high priority.

One good thing that has happened to the scientific establishment here in India is the realization that if you want to keep top talent back home you have to keep reaching for the stars, as it were.

After years of seeing our best guys run away to the west , I am beginning to notice a desire to stay back and work on meaningful stuff here at home.

 

[Nik]

IMHO, they're doing what NASA infamously didn't, way-back-when...

There's enough 'shape' commonality with a dozen other programs to look 'right', and they're smart enough to NOT stick the design with crippling bay-size and cross-range issues. Big enough to be 'useful', small enough to air-lift, air-drop or boost with modest launchers or pegasus-style sub-stages, suit a two-seater with pay-load or pressure can...

As a 'research' craft, it seems okay. Progress to man-rated, do many modest flights like those neat lifting-bodies NASA had, work up...

Um, I hope they're talking to the Australians-- Launch SE over ocean, rent a landing strip in the Outback.

Few years down the line, they'll have the materials, the avionics, and they could license-in Sabre engines...

 

[Matej]

Some fresh information and photo of the engineering model:

Edit : I've removed the link, because it was reported to link to a porn site. Trying by myself,
I got at first the message "page not found" and then a Malware warning.

I didn´t get the malware warning, but the link is dead anyway.

 

[antigravite]

Isro's Annual report (March 2013) reads:

A winged Re-usable Launch Vehicle Technology Demonstrator (RLV-TD) has been configured to act as a flying test bed to evaluate various technologies, namely, hypersonic flight, autonomous landing, powered cruise flight and hypersonic flight using air breathing propulsion towards realising a Two Stage to Orbit (TSTO) fully re-usable launch vehicle.

Major highlights of RLV-TD during the year include:

mission analysis based on static test propulsion performance, updating of autopilot design in RLV-TD ascent phase and Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (TDV) descent phase, 6D simulations through COMETS & SITARA to validate Navigation and Guidance Control (NGC) design, liftoff studies and wind turbulence studies. Guidance and Autopilot designs were modified based on simulation results.

Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (TDV) structural model was realised. Fuselage and inter stage assemblies are realised for structural testing. Flush Air Data System (FADS) (FADS is also one of the critical technologies for AMCA) test article realised and integration procedure, FADS algorithm, avionics and leak tightness for pressure pick up assembly were validated through 1:1 FADS wind tunnel test at IIT, Kanpur.

Qualification model of Radar Altimeter was realised and balloon test conducted at TIFR, Hyderabad. Carbon-carbon (C/C) laminates for nose cap were realised through a new route. Functional qualification test of Launch Hold and Release System (LHRS) with dual pyro initiation carried out with simulated interfaces.

The testing of HS9 booster stage separation system along with hydraulic line separation system was completed successfully. High altitude test of the 2 kN retro rocket developed for jettisoning spent HS9 motor was successfully conducted at SDSC SHAR.

The Integrated Technical Review (ITR) of RLV-TD by the National Review Committee in October 2012 has concluded that launch of RLV-TD HEX-01 mission in September 2013 is feasible

source: http://www.isro.org/pdf/Annual%20Report%202012-13.pdf page 64

 

[RGClark]

Looks very similar to the X-37b. Any idea what its size is?

Bob Clark

 

[Matej]

Looks very similar to the X-37b.

That was also my first impression, only the wing is moved backward. Regarding the size, there is some sort of standardized table next to the second vehicle or you can use door width to make a calculation.