In Need of Photos of the Curtiss XP-71 and Bell XP-52

[convairxf92]

Hey guys:

As the title says, I'm looking for more that the few bits and pieces I've found online, if any more exist. I'm working on the 1/144 Anigrand kits currently in preparation for an IPMS show in June. What I'm lacking are color schemes. If anyone has something to share, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

- Jim

 

[Stargazer]

The only two colors schemes I've found for the XP-71 and XP-52 are fictional, I believe. Here they are, though you probably have them already...

 

[convairxf92]

Stargazer:

Thanks for the reply. I had seen the all-metal XP-52, but not the comic of the XP-71. I did find a wood model of the XP-71 online, but the pic was in B & W. I'm amazed at how large that fighter would have been and will be the largest prop fighter in my collection.

So.....I guess what color I paint it is up for grabs. I'm thinking about painting it black and making it a night fighter; however, I've yet to see any evidence if that was it's original intent.

Thanks again.

- Jim

 

[Antonio]

'm thinking about painting it black and making it a night fighter

XP-71 was a "day bomber killer" design. Not a pursuit interceptor but a sort of "anti-aircraft flying artillery" to stop large incoming bomber "armadas". That was the thinking of strategists from 20's to late 30's.

 

[Johnbr]

This is all I have found on it.

 

[convairxf92]

That's a photo I haven't seen. It gives a nice perspective. Thanks.

 

[Silencer1]

Hi!

Photo of windtunnel model of XP-71
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4561528715/lightbox/

 

[Stargazer]

A cutaway view...

 

[convairxf92]

Thanks for all of the help, gentlemen. The full size mock-up makes me wonder how many more photos of it are in the Curtiss archives.

I did find an artist's rendition using RAF desert camouflage on Wings Palette.
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/2334/9/0

For you history buffs, would that be an accurate scheme to put with U.S. markings? I have at least one representative of each fighter in my display case with U.S. markings, which is why I ask. I really would like to go with something other than OD or natural metal, which seem to be the most common color of the day.

 

[Antonio]

I did find an artist's rendition using RAF desert camouflage on Wings Palette.

Not very realistic from the History buff's view. There was no role for the P-71 in the RAF.
The same lack of credibility from that "Me329_sc3.jpg" composition from Jozef Gatial. The P-71 was never intended to be a tactical aircraft. Going into dogfight with such a big aircraft would be suicidal.
Instead the Altered Wars cover approaches much better the real thing with the P-71 chasing that heavy Junkers.

Many US aircraft designed before WWII remained unbuilt because they were conceived to fought in theoretical War theaters that had little in common with those actually encountered in WWII. As I told previously, the P-71 specialized role was stop German heavy bombers before they could hit US mainland. The logical operational cammo to me for the P-71 is olive drab and light grey (or natural metal with the US winning the War).

For those interested in US fighter pre-WWII development I recommend "Development of the P-51 Mustang. Long range escort fighter" by Paul A. Ludwig (Ed. Ian Allan 2003)

The P-71 concept is briefly described on pages 54-55

Once the German FW Condor's non-stop flight had alarmed the Air Corps, they embarked upon a project for a pure bomber destroyer. Considerable concern was entertained lest the Germans attempt to use long-distance heavy bombers of the FW type against the United States.
A possibility considered at that time was German bombers based in South America.
The XP-71 was powered by the same engine utilized in the B-36 and had a winspan just 20 ft less than a B-17...Firing a fixed-mounted artillery piece in the sky at moving targets was considered to be normal in 1940. When asked how it was to be done, on 11 September 1941, Lt Col Meyers told the Army's Chief of Ordenance: the pilot puts the airplane on target, directly astern and at the same level.The pilot was to hold the aircraft steady, the cannon crewman took range, used a computer to calculate data and fires the piece.
The XP-71 was a flying artillery emplacement.

Conceived for the same XP-71 role, the most delirious concept I can recall was the contemporary Messerschmitt P.08.01 airborne anti-aircraft platform variant, equipped with four 88 mm guns*. Think in the XP-71 as that, not as a fighter in the straight sense.

(*) Source: Secret Projects. Flying Wings and Tailless Aircraft by Bill Rose. (Ed. Midland 2010) Page 68

 

[convairxf92]

pometablava:

Thanks for confirming the color scheme of the XP-71. How about the XP-52? Would it also receive the same OD and light gray treatment?

 

[Apophenia]

... How about the XP-52? Would it also receive the same OD and light gray treatment?

You'd be safe with Olive Drab 41 over Neutral Grey 43 for a hypothetical service P-52. That's what Bell applied to all production models of the P-39. For that XP-52 art, I just used the XP-39 as my model.

 

[Antonio]

I agree with Apophenia. You'll be safe with the OD and Neutral Grey. However you could be much more flexible with the XP-52 because that was much closer to the American pursuit class.

From the available data, the XP-52 was a 1941 unsolicited proposal to the USAAC for what I consider "Circular Proposal X-609 lineage":

single-engine high-altitude "interceptor" having "the tactical mission of interception and attack of hostile aircraft at high altitude. Despite being called an interceptor, the proposed aircraft's role was simply an extension of the traditional pursuit (fighter) role, using a heavier and more powerful aircraft at higher altitude."

(The Lockheed P-38. W.Bodie 1991, pp. 16–17.)

XP-52 was just a bit bigger and heavier than a P-39 and it was designed to the same role with all-nose heavy guns, so I suggest you could freely use the same cammo, operators and put it on the same war theaters.

 

[convairxf92]

Would you recommend desert camo or the kind used in the European theater? Thanks.

 

[Antonio]

Depend on your preferences...But most US pursuit types designed for high altitude operations were relegated to low altitude tactical roles once they were replaced with more capable aircraft. Just remember the P-39 (sans turbo super charger) or the bigger P-47. Thanks to their heavy anti-bomber armament they served well in close air support duties.

So I think an hypothetical series produced P-52 could have been supplied to WWII Allied nations and operated elsewhere. The limit is your imagination: RAF in desert cammo South Mediterranean, RAAF defending Australian coast from Japanese raids, USAAC over Italian skies, Soviet Union,...

 

[Apophenia]

Would you recommend desert camo or the kind used in the European theater? Thanks.

If you're thinking of North Africa, the 12th AF P-39s (81st FG) are probably your best bet. Those were factory-painted in that same Dark Olive Drab 41 and RAF Dark Earth for the upper pattern over RAF Sky Grey undersides. Most 12th AF fighters seem to have RAF-style three letter codes although a few P-40s had individual aircraft numbers.

 

[convairxf92]

Apophenia:

I like the idea. I don't have any planes in the collection with that color scheme. Thanks!

 

[Antonio]

12th AF (81st FG)

That could be nice, Apophenia.

Jim, will you show us the finished model?

Thanks in advance.

Antonio

 

[convairxf92]

Most certainly I will post pics. I'm currently working on five planes in hopes of finishing them before the show on June 11: Republic XP-41, Bell XP-52, Lockheed XP-58, Curtiss XP-71, and the Republic XP-72. Once those are finished, the only planes missing from the collection, P-35 through the F-35 will be the XP-44 (which is more or less the P-43), XP-57, X-P60, and the XP-68 (which is the Vultee XP-54 with a contra-rotating prop). You can see the current collection at http://www.flickr.com/photos/30794229@N02/sets/72157609774812412/

 

[Grey Havoc]

Good luck with it!

 

[Stargazer]

You can see the current collection at http://www.flickr.com/photos/30794229@N02/sets/72157609774812412/

Fantastic idea and wonderful set of models! Now what they need is a real setting (perhaps on a piece of tarmac beside an airfield?) to bring the best out of them. They deserve better than flashlamps and bookshelves...

 

[Apophenia]

Wow, that's quite a collection Nice work!

 

[Antonio]

You can see the current collection

Congratulations, that's an excellent work!. An great collection to learn about the evolution of American fighter design. It would be great if you could post a photo of the XP-71 side by side with a P-40 to appreciate the huge size of the "bomber destroyer".

 

[convairxf92]

Congratulations, that's an excellent work!. An great collection to learn about the evolution of American fighter design. It would be great if you could post a photo of the XP-71 side by side with a P-40 to appreciate the huge size of the "bomber destroyer"

You bet I will. Thanks for looking. I painted the fuselages to the XP-58, the XP-41, the XP-72 and the XP-71 last night. The XP-58 is coated with Alclad chrome, which looks just about like the polished aluminum. Unfortunately, I ran out and had to resort to Testors for the other two. The plan is to paint the XP-52 camo tonight - that all depends on how much energy I have I was up until midnight last night, so who knows.

 

[convairxf92]

You can see the current collection

Congratulations, that's an excellent work!. An great collection to learn about the evolution of American fighter design. It would be great if you could post a photo of the XP-71 side by side with a P-40 to appreciate the huge size of the "bomber destroyer".

I finished five planes, 1/144 scale, over the past two weeks: Seversky XP-41, Bell XP-52, Lockheed XP-58, Curtiss XP-71, and the Republic XP-72. Here's the pic you requested!

 

[Antonio]

Many thanks!

Wow, visualized side by side with the P-40, the XP-71 is simply massive. Now I guess nobody can doubt it was not a dogfighter.

 

[Antonio]

Additional and valuable info on XP-71 can be found at Bill Norton's "US Experimental & Prototype Aircraft Projects. Fighters 1939-1945". Speciality Press. Page 138 and 139.