IMBT and A2CS: the future of the Italian army.

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Hello and good day to everyone.

This thread was created in order to gain info about the new Italian army MBT and IFV projects currently in development.

Background: Since 2023, Italy started to look for new solutions for modernize it's armored compartments. The program aim to acquire two type (with a lot of subvariants) of new veichles, an MBT, as a gap filler to be fielded alongside the upgraded Ariete AMV (C2/C3) until next gen design (Mainly referring at the Franco German MGCS) won't be ready and a new IFV class (AICS programme, later renamed A2CS), for replace the good but old dardo ifv and the very old M113 and VCC1/2 apc and general porpouse veichles. What were the Initial candidates Is not very clear, but the It was rumored about the followings:

- M1 Abrams (unknown version and only rumored)
-Merkava (the possibility was supported only by a single newspaper, (wich was many times referred as personal bias of the administrator) so I will leave It as a "not a very likely choice")
- K2 (rumored, but never confirmed)
- Leo 2A7 AV (actual candidate)
- Leo 2A8 (actual candidate)

While for the IFV programme, the confirmed competitors were:
- KF41 Lynx
- Consorzio Iveco-Oto Melara (CIO) proposal
- Leonardo-KNDS proposal
- CV90 MKIV
- Tracked Boxer
- Redback (only at the end of the competition)

For the MBT, the Initial choice was pretty obvious, as the only two tanks were the German Leopards as the Italian army was only looking for Europeans solutions. Indeed, the Leopard 2A8 was ordered some months later after the a announcement of the programme. The Italian army wanted a modified version with Italian various Italian parts made by Leonardo (optics, FCS, Italian remote Turrets, radios and other internal parts, and under license cannon, with maiby some small modifications) and the tanks would have been produced locally at Oto Melara facilities.
While for the IFV, initially none of the candidates were confirmed, even when the Initial agreement with KNDS looked stable.
After One year, some non apparent problems started to show up between Leonardo and KNDS, because the German Company didn't wanted to let Italy modify theyr tank and they even rejected local production. Leonardo declared these conditions unacceptable and started to look for another partner that could accept Italian requirments, burying the Leopard 2A8 IT. With the cancellation of the Leo2A8 IT, the KNDS-Leonardo IFV falled apart immediatly. The other German defence gigant, Rheinmetall, who was looking at the events from the corner, contacted Leonardo and the Italian Army offering what KNDS denied. Some Months later an agreement was signed between the two companies for develop a family of new platform based on the new KF51 Panthet MBT and on the KF41 Lynx. The official agreement will be signed in September 2024, with the delivery of the First units within 24/36 months After the agreement (like what was done with Hungary).

So what do we know today about these new units?

IMBT: the IMBT (Italian Main Battle Tank) Is the new Italian MBT derivated from the German Panther. What do we know about It for now? Unfortunatly not much, If nothing at all, since the name Is the only informations revealed. The Italian army ordered a total of 280 units, 130 in the combat version and 140 in the recovery/supply/utility versions.

A2CS: The A2CS programme will be a family of veichles based on an Italian KF41 Lynx derivates. More info about this veichles are know compared to the IMBT.
The Italian army Plan to acquire a total of 1100 units for replace all the older APC and IFV as alredy stated. Some times ago the Italian army published a slide wich include all the versions that Italy will get:
Combat: Classic IFV version with a missile-less turret with only the gun
Esplorante Da 120 mm: a light tank version equipped with a 120 mm turret (probably the Hitfact MK2)
Fire Support: unknown version
Posto Comando: a turret less command veichle
Contro Carri: anty tank version, with a full turret armed with a cannon and atgm
Guastatori: Anty mine veichle
Posto munizione: ammo carrier
Mortaio Pesante: A variant equipped with an Heavy mortar
Anti Drone: An anty drone version (confirmed by RID that It Will use the Skynex 35 mm cannon and Will probably field the new VSHORAD by MBDA Italia)
Porta Feriti: a variant for recovery wounded soldiers
Combat Esplorante: Unknown version
Scuola Guida: a variant used for train the crews
ACRT: a combat variant equipped with a dozer
Mortaio Medio: a variant equipped with a medium mortar

(I Will also post some of the new diagramms and old renders of failed proposal in the comments and note that most of the renders used by the Italian army are mainly placeolders)

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

The Initial Rheinmetall A2CS proposal, a normal KF41 with Italian camo

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

A photoshopped Leopard 2A7AV made by @NicholasConcu showing all'the planned modifications

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

The Initial CIO proposal. (This proposal didn't really stood a chance, as It was made very fast 2 weeks After the Italian army requested a new IFV, because they had nothing ready at the time).

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

At Eurosatory, we also were able to' see the First step of this new collaboration, a baseline German KF41 with the Italian Hitfact MK2

 

[kqcke for you]

While for the IFV, initially none of the candidates were confirmed, even when the Initial agreement with KNDS looked stable.
After One year, some non apparent problems started to show up between Leonardo and KNDS, because the German Company didn't wanted to let Italy modify theyr tank and they even rejected local production. Leonardo declared these conditions unacceptable and started to look for another partner that could accept Italian requirments, burying the Leopard 2A8 IT. The other German defence gigant, Rheinmetall, who was looking at the events from the corner, contacted Leonardo and the Italian Army offering what KNDS denied. Some Months later an agreement was signed between the two companies for develop a family of new platform based on the new KF51 Panthet MBT and on the KF41 Lynx. The official agreement will be signed in September 2024, with the delivery of the First units within 24/36 months After the agreement (like what was done with Hungary).

I mean im not really following the development of the MBTs for italy but as far as i know and understand is that the winner still isn't decided. Both MBT and IFV. What is known is the cooperation between Leonardo and Rheinmetall.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

I mean im not really following the development of the MBTs for italy but as far as i know and understand is that the winner still isn't decided. Both MBT and IFV. What is known is the cooperation between Leonardo and Rheinmetall.

As I said, It was alredy decided. KDNS alredy tried to' proposed the normal Leo2a8 to' the Italian army and was rejected (this happened a week After the breakout with Leonardo)

 

[kqcke for you]

As I said, It was alredy decided. KDNS alredy tried to' proposed the normal Leo2a8 to' the Italian army and was rejected.

Again im not really in the details but as far as i know it wasn't rejected. Just the cooperation with Leonardo is dead. As far as i know it was still going down the way even when it happend

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Again im not really in the details but as far as i know it wasn't rejected. Just the cooperation with Leonardo is dead. As far as i know it was still going down the way even when it happend

I don't know what tell to You, but I can surely confirm that KNDS Is out as they didn't met any requirments. And the agreement between Leonardo, the Italian army and Rheinmetall Is scheduled for this September. If the competition wasnt ended yet like You implied, no agreement would have been scheduled (also, no other companies ever made a serious attempt to take part to the competition in the first place).

 

[GTX]

Leonardo and Rheinmetall to Deliver KF41 IFVs and KF51 Tanks to Italian Army within Three Years

Leonardo and Rheinmetall to Deliver KF41 IFVs and KF51 Tanks to Italian Army within Three Years

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Hello and good day to everyone.

This thread was created in order to gain info about the new Italian army MBT and IFV projects currently in development.

...

Thanks for the great summary.

One question though, how does CIO and Leonardo-KNDS consortium coexist? OTO Melara is now a Leonardo company afterall. I guess it's possible because they are different divisions? Or maybe it's a hedging strategy in general... but smart move by Leonardo nonetheless.

Also, Italian prospects in MGCS looks a bit bleak... especially since the deal between KNDS and Leonardo broke down. Maybe we'll eventually see IVECO (maybe as CIO) license-produce the MGCS when it is ready for deployment, but by the way things are evolving, I'm not sure if IVECO would still be involved in the business by 2040s.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Thanks for the great summary.

One question though, how does CIO and Leonardo-KNDS consortium coexist? OTO Melara is now a Leonardo company afterall. I guess it's possible because they are different divisions? Or maybe it's a hedging strategy in general... but smart move by Leonardo nonetheless.

Also, Italian prospects in MGCS looks a bit bleak... especially since the deal between KNDS and Leonardo broke down. Maybe we'll eventually see IVECO (maybe as CIO) license-produce the MGCS when it is ready for deployment, but by the way things are evolving, I'm not sure if IVECO would still be involved in the business by 2040s.

- First point: Niet, the Leonardo-KNDS consortium ceased existing before Summer (Did I forgot to state this?)
- Second point: I agree with You, personally, I doubt It Will even see the light at all, but the Italian army apparently still think It Will exist sooner or later. But I think they Will choose something else (If not start a new collaboration, Who knows, I personally think a collaboration with the Brits would work like the GCAP ; ). Also Iveco (the defense veichle department ) Will probably be acquired by Leonardo in future.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

- First point: Niet, the Leonardo-KNDS consortium ceased existing before Summer (Did I forgot to state this?)
- Second point: I agree with You, personally, I doubt It Will even see the light at all, but the Italian army apparently still think It Will exist sooner or later. But I think they Will choose something else (If not start a new collaboration, Who knows, I personally think a collaboration with the Brits would work like the GCAP ; ). Also Iveco (the defense veichle department ) Will probably be acquired by Leonardo in future.

As for the first question, I was asking this since you've mentioned that both of the consortias were in contention for the IFV (more like genearl family of AFVs) programme. I guess I misunderstood it then.

As for the future MBT prospects, I think a collaboration with the UK sounds like something that could definitely happen, maybe even something like a joint UK-Italian-Swedish or UK-Italian-Spanish programme, since both Spain and Sweden will eventually need to replace their Leopard 2s in the future. They are obviously future potential markets for KNDS, but if UK and Italy were to lead a major new MBT programme, I think it is aboslutely possible for them to join in, especially considering industrial protection of BAE Systems AB and GDELS Spain. Also, I really can't see the British Army procuring a wholly-Franko-German MBT instead of continuing their tank building lineage, well, because they're Brits.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

As for the first question, I was asking this since you've mentioned that both of the consortias were in contention for the IFV (more like genearl family of AFVs) programme. I guess I misunderstood it then.

As for the future MBT prospects, I think a collaboration with the UK sounds like something that could definitely happen, maybe even something like a joint UK-Italian-Swedish or UK-Italian-Spanish programme, since both Spain and Sweden will eventually need to replace their Leopard 2s in the future. They are obviously future potential markets for KNDS, but if UK and Italy were to lead a major new MBT programme, I think it is aboslutely possible for them to join in, especially considering industrial protection of BAE Systems AB and GDELS Spain. Also, I really can't see the British Army procuring a wholly-Franko-German MBT instead of continuing their tank building lineage, well, because they're Brits.

You are right, I added the missing part, thanks for reporting It.

 

[Regio Ammiraglio]

Papperger svela i primi dettagli sulla joint venture tra Leonardo e Rheinmetall – Analisi Difesa

www.analisidifesa.it

An Initial batch of IMBT and Lynx will be made in germany for speed up deliveries.