IAR-80 with inline engine

[lancer21]

According to the IAR-80 TMA book, there were two airframes modified to take german DB engines( not counting the fact that the original IAR-80 project envisaged a Jumo-211 engine ).

First was IAR-80 no.13 modified in spring 1941 to take an DB-601Aa engine , only one unsuccesful flight made in april ( severe vibrations felt in the airframe , pilot ordered to jump , but he didnt and brought the aircraft for landing succesfully ).

Second was IAR-81C no.326 modified in 1943 to take a DB-605A engine , test flighted between june 20th and july 20th 1943 , aparently succesful , but for various reasons the envisaged modification of in-service aircraft to this configuration never happened ( imho what a pity ).

There's a jawdropping ( at least for me) color profile of this aircraft in the book , obviously based on the only picture of the inline IAR-80 available ( which it seems indeed shows no.326 in summer 1943).

I know it is a very very long shot , but i wonder if someone has more information on these aircrafts ? Photos ,drawings , performance datas , anything ? I posed the same question on romanian fora ( and hoping for something !) , and i thought maby there's a small chance someone abroad might have such "treasures" aswell...

Thanks for your time.

PS: Heres the color profile , all the copyright goes to the authors of the book and the drawings ,to be honest never knew exactly the ways of this copyright thingie ,what one can and cannot post , hope i'm not gonna thread on anyone's feet , not my intention...

 

[airman]

The IAR-80 no. 13 was fitted with a DB-601Aa from a Romanian Bf-109E (no. 4) with the no. 11210. The first flight was on 21 April 1941 and the pilot was Dudu Frim. After take off the vibrations started. He was ordered to abandon the airplane, but he refused and brought it back. The project was canceled.

In June 1943, the IAR-80 no. 326 was modified to receive a DB-605A (1475 HP). The first flight was made on 29 June 1943. The performance of the airplane improved greatly and an order was issued to Daimler Benz. They, however, refused to take it. Apparently they were already overstretched by the Luftwaffe orders.

from http://warbirdsforum.com/archive/index.php/t-685.html

so IAR-80 with DB605 was faster than original of 50 km/h

 

[lancer21]

Thanks Airman , yeah i did saw that discussion a while ago , although tbh i have my doubts about being only 50km/h faster( a total speculation from my part , but imo it should easily reach 600km/h, it has alot more power, less frontal drag, it will be a tad heavier , but not heavier than a Bf-109G-2/4)...wonder where this " 50km/h faster" statement comes from , was this detail published somewhere or ... ???

Again , thanks for your reply.

 

[Tophe]

Thanks Lancer for this picture post. This is one of the most beautiful plane of the 1940s I have ever seen.
I have imagined IAR-51B/D Mustang half-breed from it, for what-if friends ( http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,4461.570.html ). Thanks again for this pleasant inspiration.

 

[lancer21]

No problem Tophe , glad you like it . Imho this IAR would make a splendid Luft-46 or Il-2 Shturmovik 1946 ( or whatever they call that game ...)warbird, and i secretly hope someone would one day. ( we can dream , can't we?)

 

[robunos]

There's an article in the July 1976 issue of 'Air International', pp.31-5, about the IAR 80,
'A Polygenetic Rumanian...The Story of the IAR 80', and while there's no mention of any
aircraft of this type being fitted with a Daimler-Benz powerplant, there is this :-

"...some trials were conducted with one IAR 81 airframe experimentally fitted with a
Junkers Jumo 211Da liquid-cooled engine..." (my bold)

Hmmmm.................


cheers,
Robin.

 

[lancer21]

Well imo those are very old infos whose correctitude was dictated by the times ( ie Romania was under communist rule, and AI got their info from wherever they could , bar Romania !). This Jumo-211 engine story was perpetuated all the way into the nineties( including in RO magazines!) until acces to the old archives became possible...

Besides in the only inline engined IAR-80 pic, i cant make anything resembling a supercharger/supercharger intake ( as you know the Jumo 2111 has it on the right , DB on the left ...), tho granted theres alot of peoples around the aircraft placed in "strategic" places as someone put it once ...

Offcourse as i said before the IAR-80 project envisaged at first a Jumo-211 engine , but based on what i've read ,no airframe ever got such engine...

 

[robunos]

Thanks for that, it always helps to have more information.

in the only inline engined IAR-80 pic

Could you post this, please??

the IAR-80 project envisaged at first a Jumo-211 negine

In the article I have, it basically states that the IAR 80 was to make maximum use of
technology derived from the PZL P.24, which was built under licence at IAR-Brasov,
immediately prior to the IAR 80, including the engine and engine mount.
Is this correct?


cheers,
Robin.

 

[lancer21]

The picture has been around for quite a while, as i said unfortunately alot of peoples obscuring the aircraft ( btw ignore the caption)...Still hoping for a better pic of this machine apearing one day ...

http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displayimage.php?pid=8761&fullsize=1

As for the PZL part , yes thats correct, the rear fuselage was taken from the PZL-24 with some alterations, while the front fuselage and the wings were designed anew...here's a pic of the open-cockpit prototype...

http://webspace.webring.com/people/ks/strezahuzum/pics/prototip2.jpg

Here's a much better quality scan of the inline engined IAR-80 pic, from the same book ...

 

[Skyraider3D]

When you think you've seen it all... Very cool, new to me!

 

[robunos]

this, from 'On Three Fronts; Romania's Aircraft Industry During World War Two', 'Air Enthusiast' No.56, Winter 1994 page 15 :-

"...in early 1942, the Romanians experimentally fitted IAR-80a No 111 with one of the...Jumo 211Da engines...ordered for the JRS.79B (twin-engine variant of the Savoia-Machetti SM.79 bomber). Unfortunately the stresses set up by the original radial engine were very different to those of the new in-line engine, and on it's only flight the engine mounting worked loose, and the aircraft had make an unpowered emergency landing. Work was discontinued.
Although further refinements to armament and endurance continued to be made...no further drastic uprating or replacement of the engine...was possible.
Consequently, from 1942 the IAR-80 and IAR-81 began to fall behind the performance of newer Soviet fighter designs..."

There is no mention of a DB 605 powered IAR-80 anywhere is this article.

However there is this, same article, page 24 :-
"On January 16, 1943, a new dive-bomber project, the IAR-471, was commissioned, which was to be powered by the DB 605...
No prototype flew." (my bold)


cheers,
Robin.

 

[lancer21]

Aparently , again from the TMA book and from what i could gather around , in january 1941 the intention to still power the production aircraft from N21 onwards with the Jumo-211Da was dropped officially ( leaving those engine equiping only the JRS-79s , on which they gave excellent results subsequently), because the engine proved to be too heavy . Estimated performaces were 558 kph at altitude with Jumo-211, while with an IAR 14K 1000hp engine was 528 kph at 4000m. Also the calculation showed the IAR 14K powered a/c to be superior to the Jumo-211 one below 4000m ...

It seems there's a new book about IAR-80 to appear shortly ,by Radu Branzan ( it's listed on Amazon). Would be interesting to see if there's anything new on this inline engine matter or not...( tho the book apears to be oriented more towards modelists ...)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Iar-80-Iar-81-Radu-Brinzan/dp/1906959196

 

[Apophenia]

...
However there is this, same article, page 24 :-
"On January 16, 1943, a new dive-bomber project, the IAR-471, was commissioned, which was to be powered by the DB 605...
No prototype flew." (my bold)...

Shinblam quoted the details on the IAR-471 from that Air Enthusiast article here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2814.0/ Reply #8

 

[lancer21]

Since we're talking about IAR-80 in this topic , no inlined ones in this vid , but still it left me jawdropped because i've never seen most of that footage on the net before. (IAR-80 footage is aparently EXTREMELY rare).

Courtesy of mr. MRX of romanian fora.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT9xiWM47iI

 

[Justo Miranda]

Some additional info here

 

[lancer21]

Wow, more jawdropping ...many thanks Justo Miranda! I know it is a fairly old article , but always most interesting to see how the IAR-80 was portrayed over the years. Notice that in the middle drawing of the "Jumo" powered one, radiator shape is mistaken, it looks very neat BUT it can't extend beyond the landing gear bays, as the wheels almost meet when retracted. ( corrected in the model /model drawings and recent colour profile)

Can't wait to get the new SAM IAR-80 book of mr. Brinzan , they told me at the shop today that any day now ... There's a very nice 4 view drawing there of No.326 ( with the DB-605A).

A question for the more knowledgeable folk than me , if i may . Can the DB-605A use the DB-601A prop (VDM something, sorry i don't know the exact model) or the VDM 11131A prop , without altering the engine? Why am i asking this is because if i'm not mistaken , it SEEMS that the drawing i posted of 326 seems to still show a narrow blade prop , similar to the one on the series IAR-80. Now IF they have used indeed a DB-605A on 326 , surely they must have used a Bf-109G type wide blade prop aswell. It is of course not clear in the only photo known, but imho, it can't be other way.

Thanks!

 

[lucamax]

Hi, does anyone have a 3-view and more pictures of this aircraft?? Thanks a lot in advance :-D

 

[Apophenia]

... Can the DB-605A use the DB-601A prop (VDM something, sorry i don't know the exact model) or the VDM 11131A prop , without altering the engine? Why am i asking this is because if i'm not mistaken , it SEEMS that the drawing i posted of 326 seems to still show a narrow blade prop , similar to the one on the series IAR-80. Now IF they have used indeed a DB-605A on 326 , surely they must have used a Bf-109G type wide blade prop aswell. It is of course not clear in the only photo known, but imho, it can't be other way.

The DB 605A didn't have to have to use the Bf-109G's wooden-bladed propeller -- just look at the Saab J21 or Italian 'series 5' fighters. So (for those more knowledgable types) what metal-bladed prop is probable? Considering IAR's Italian connections, is it possible that a Piaggio P2001 might have been used?

 

[lancer21]

Well the ARR received their first Bf-109Gs in march 1943 i think , so i believe it's much more probable they used a DB-605A straight with a Bf-109G-2 or 4 propeller ( Isn't the Bf-109G-2/4 prop metallic?) . Never heard anything about an italian prop on IAR-80 on romanian fora or any publication i read.

 

[lancer21]

Hi, does anyone have a 3-view and more pictures of this aircraft?? Thanks a lot in advance :-D

A 3-view will be in the book i mentioned . There are but a single pic released (posted above) of the inline engine IAR-80 , to my knowledge.

 

[Taranov]

Hi, does anyone have a 3-view and more pictures of this aircraft?? Thanks a lot in advance :-D

Same source, reduced to same scale of all views.
And IAR 81C as a basical aircraft.

 

[lucamax]

Very Thanks for your help!

 

[Apophenia]

Well the ARR received their first Bf-109Gs in march 1943 i think , so i believe it's much more probable they used a DB-605A straight with a Bf-109G-2 or 4 propeller ( Isn't the Bf-109G-2/4 prop metallic?) . Never heard anything about an italian prop on IAR-80 on romanian fora or any publication i read.

Yes, VDM's 9-12087, I think. But that takes us back to your original question. The Messerschmitt's alloy propeller was still broad-bladed. You were looking for a narrow-chord propeller, right?

Back to those "more knowledgeable folk"

 

[lancer21]

Thanks Apophenia.

Well, i reasoned that since the blade shape/width is not clear in the single photo we know , then the drawing of 326 , especially the nose, must be in part educated guesswork really (just like the attempts in the nineties to draw the aircraft as having a Jumo-211, as seen above ). Perhaps the author used the standard propeller because he didn't really had anything else to show otherwise.

But imo logically , it is probable that another prop (maybe Bf-109G-2/4 type) was used, simply because that fits with the engine and would have been available locally. So that's what i'm trying to find out. Maybe we'll find out one day.

 

[Stargazer]

The IAR 80A inline version, along with the regular version and the 80DC (double cockpit) variant:

 

[lancer21]

Again, slightly off topic, someone uploaded a clip with romanian combat aircraft during WW2, including some IAR-80 footage that is completely new to me.

PS: Well , i just wanted to post a link to the clip on facebook , but strangely , i can't seem to be able to paste links , or paste anything for that matter... i must be doing something wrong , am i ? :-[

 

[lancer21]

For those interested, there's a brand new work released on IAR-80 by Radu Brinzan, probably the most comprehensive study of IAR-80 as a machine, about the same type of work as the previous SAM title, but much more extensive and richly illustrated.
Not much new regarding the inline engined or Gnome-Rhone-14R prototypes, although the author's conclusion seem to be that it's possible there might have been a Jumo equipped airframe as well.

https://www.facebook.com/WydawnictwoStratus/photos/a.180473875322309.36630.158553390847691/730355767000781/?type=1&permPage=1

PS: it also appears that the title is already exhausted on the author's website! Crickey i was lucky.
http://www.radubstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=118&products_id=471

 

[athpilot]

Here´s some boxart.

Greetings

 

[blockhaj]

May i ask for this thread to necro?
Does anyone have accees to the Romanian archives and can find information regarding the IAR.80 No 0 with the DB601? Also the IAR.81C with the DB605?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi